022 SASC Transcript 2023

Stenographic Transcript Before the Subcommittee on Emerging Threats and Capabilities COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICES UNITED STATES SENATE HEARING TO RECEIVE TESTIMONY ON THE MISSION, ACTIVITIES, OVERSIGHT, AND BUDGET OF THE ALL-DOM AIN ANOMALY RESOLUTION OFFICE Wednesday, April 19, 2023 Washington, D.C. ALDERSON COURT REPORTING 1111 14TH STREET NW SUITE 1050 WASHINGTON, D.C. 20005 (202) 289-2260 www.aldersonreporting.com All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office Chief of Staff, AARO Authority: FY24 NDAA, now codified at 44 U.S.C. 2107 Date: 2/6/2025 Released in Full: X Case Number: 330UAP000022 Page d etermined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 02 2 1 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 HEARING TO RECEIVE TESTIMONY ON THE 2 MISSION, ACTIVITIES, OVERSIGHT, AND BUDGET OF THE 3 ALL-DOMAIN ANOMALY RESOLUTION OFFICE 4 5 Wednesday, April 19, 2023 6 7 U.S. Senate 8 Subcommittee on Emerging 9 Threats and Capabilities 10 Committee on Armed Services 11 Washington, D.C. 12 13 The subcommittee met, pursuant to notice, at 11:08 a.m. 14 in Room SR-232A, Russell Senate Office Building, Hon. 15 Kirsten E. Gillibrand, chairwoman of the subcommittee, 16 presiding. 17 Subcommittee Members Present: Senators Gillibrand 18 [presiding], Rosen, and Ernst. 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 2 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 OPENING STATEMENT OF HON. KIRSTEN E. GILLIBRAND, U.S. 2 SENATOR FROM NEW YORK 3 Senator Gillibrand: The hearing will come to order. 4 I would first like to thank our witness, Dr. Sean 5 Kirkpatrick, for testifying here and in today's earlier 6 closed session, and for his long and distinguished career 7 both in the intelligence community and in the Department of 8 Defense. 9 Dr. Kirkpatrick is the director of the All-Domain 10 Anomaly Resolution Office, or AARO. Congress established 11 this office in law to get to the bottom of the very serious 12 problem of unidentified anomalous phenomena, or UAP. 13 Dr. Kirkpatrick has a very difficult mission. While we 14 have made progress there remains a stigma attached to these 15 phenomenon. There is a vast and complex citizen engagement 16 and there is also very challenging scientific and technical 17 hurdles. 18 So we appreciate the willingness of Dr. Kirkpatrick to 19 lean in on this issue and the work that he has accomplished 20 thus far and we look forward to both his opening statement 21 and his presentation of examples of the work AARO has done. 22 In late 2017 media reports surfaced about activities 23 set in motion by the late long-serving Majority Leader 24 Senator Harry Reid more than a decade ago. We learned that 25 there was strong evidence of advanced technology reflected Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 3 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 in the features and performance characteristics of many 2 objects observed by our highly-trained service members 3 operating top of the line military equipment. 4 We learned that for at least the past eight years 5 military pilots frequently encountered unknown objects in 6 controlled airspace off both the East and West Coasts, 7 across the continental United States, in test and training 8 areas and ranges. 9 We do not know where they are -- they come from, who 10 made them, or how they operate. As former Deputy Secretary 11 of Defense David Norquist observed, had any of these objects 12 had the label made in China there would be an uproar in the 13 government and media. There would be no stone unturned and 14 no effort spared to find out what we were dealing with. 15 We can look at the recent incursion of the unidentified 16 PRC high-altitude balloon as an example and because of the 17 UFO stigma the response has been irresponsibly anemic and 18 slow. 19 Congress established AARO. We made it clear that we 20 expect vigorous action. We added very substantial initial 21 funding for the office. But despite our best efforts the 22 President's budget for fiscal years '23 and '24 requested 23 only enough funding to defray the operating expenses of 24 AARO. 25 It included almost no funds to sustain the critical Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 4 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 research and development necessary to support a serious 2 investigation. It took a letter to Secretary Austin from 3 Senator Rubio and me and 14 other senators to get the office 4 temporary relief for the current fiscal year. 5 In this hearing I intend to probe a series of specific 6 issues. In the recent incidents where multiple objects were 7 shot down over North America it seemed that Pentagon 8 leadership did not turn to AARO office to play a leading 9 role in advising the combatant commander. 10 We need to know whether this will continue. We need to 11 know whether the leadership in DOD will bring AARO into the 12 decision-making process in a visible way and we need to know 13 what role AARO will play in interagency coordination after 14 the NSC Working Group disbands. 15 In the fiscal year 2023 National Defense and 16 Intelligence Authorization Act Congress established a direct 17 reporting chain from the AARO director to the Deputy 18 Secretary of Defense. 19 The role of the Office of the Under Secretary of 20 Defense for Intelligence and Security is limited to 21 providing administrative support. We need to know how this 22 direction is being implemented. 23 UAP are frequently observed flying in extremely high or 24 very low speeds and come in various sizes and shapes. 25 During the recent shoot downs over North America DOD Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 5 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 disclosed that filters on radar systems were adjusted to 2 allow for detection and tracking of diverse sets of objects 3 for the first time. While opening the aperture can overload 4 the real-time analytic process we cannot keep turning a 5 blind eye to surveillance data that is critical to detecting 6 and tracking UAP. 7 We need to know whether Dr. Kirkpatrick could achieve 8 the necessary control over sensor filters and the storage 9 and access to raw surveillance data to find UAP anomalies. 10 Finally, one of the tasks Congress set for AARO is 11 serving as an open door for witnesses of UAP events or 12 participants in government activities related to UAPs to 13 come forward securely and disclose what they know without 14 fear of retribution for any possible violations of 15 previously signed nondisclosure agreements. 16 Congress mandated that AARO set up a publicly 17 discoverable and accessible process for safe disclosure. 18 While we know that AARO has already conducted a significant 19 number of interviews, many referred by Congress, we need to 20 set up a public process that -- and we need to know where 21 that effort stands. 22 With that, I would like to turn to Senator Ernst for 23 her opening statement. 24 25 Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 6 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 STATEMENT OF HON. JONI ERNST, U.S. SENATOR FROM IOWA 2 Senator Ernst: Thank you, Madam Chair, and thank you, 3 Dr. Kirkpatrick, for your testimony today. I will keep 4 these remarks very brief so that we have maximum time for 5 your briefing. 6 The recent downing of the Chinese surveillance balloon 7 and three other objects underscores the need for domain 8 awareness. Adversaries like China and Russia are working to 9 hold U.S. interests, including our homeland, at risk. That 10 is why your testimony is so important and I so look forward 11 to a progress update on the establishment of your office. 12 As members know, your office evolved from the Navy-led 13 Unidentified Aerial Phenomena Task Force to the All-Domain 14 Anomalous Resolution Office known as AARO. 15 Dr. Kirkpatrick, your extensive background in science 16 and technology, research and development, and space makes 17 you well suited to discuss these emerging challenges. 18 My priority is that we understand the full range of 19 threats posed by our adversaries in all domains. That is 20 what the joint force needs to be prepared to fight and win 21 in defense of our nation. 22 This committee needs to know about Chinese or Russian 23 advanced technology programs to exploit our vulnerabilities 24 and it needs to know whether your office, along with the IC, 25 has detected potential Chinese or Russian capabilities to Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 7 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 surveille or attack us. 2 Finally, we need to ensure efficient interagency 3 coordination. Multiple elements of the DOD and IC own a 4 piece of this mission. To add value, AARO's efforts cannot 5 be redundant with others. 6 Thank you again. We look forward to your testimony. 7 Senator Gillibrand: Dr. Kirkpatrick, you can give your 8 testimony. 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 8 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 STATEMENT OF DR. SEAN M. KIRKPATRICK, DIRECTOR, ALL- 2 DOMAIN ANOMALY RESOLUTION OFFICE 3 Mr. Kirkpatrick: Thank you, Chairwoman Gillibrand, 4 Ranking Member Ernst, and distinguished members of the 5 subcommittee. It is a privilege to be here today to testify 6 on the Defense -- Defense's efforts to address unidentified 7 anomalous phenomena. 8 First, I want to thank Congress for its extensive and 9 continued partnership as the department works to better 10 understand and respond to UAP in an effort to minimize 11 technical and intelligence surprise. 12 Unidentified objects in any domain pose potential risks 13 to safety and security, particularly from military personnel 14 and capabilities. Congress and DOD agree that UAP cannot 15 remain unexamined or unaddressed. 16 We are grateful for sustained congressional engagement 17 on this issue, which paved the way for the DOD's 18 establishment of the All-Domain Anomaly Resolution Office in 19 July of last year. 20 Though AARO is still a young office, the spotlight on 21 UAP in recent months underscores the importance of its work 22 and the need for UAP to be taken seriously as a matter of 23 national security. 24 All leadership that I have had the pleasure of working 25 with, whether DOD, IC, DOE, civil, scientific, or industrial Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 9 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 view Congress as a critical partner in this endeavor. AARO 2 has accomplished much in the last nine months since it was 3 established. The AARO team of more than three dozen experts 4 is organized around four functional areas: operations, 5 scientific research, integrated analysis, and strategic 6 communications. 7 In the nine months since AARO's establishment we have 8 taken important steps to involve and improve UAP data 9 collection, standardize the department's UAP internal 10 reporting requirements, and implement a framework for 11 rigorous scientific and intelligence analysis, allowing us 12 to resolve cases in a systematic and prioritized manner. 13 Meanwhile, consistent with legislative direction, AARO 14 is also carefully reviewing and researching the U.S. 15 government's UAP-related historical record. AARO is leading 16 a focused effort to better characterize, understand, and 17 attribute UAP with priority given to UAP reports by DOD and 18 IC personnel in or near areas of national security 19 importance. 20 DOD fully appreciates the eagerness from many quarters, 21 especially here in Congress and in the American public, to 22 quickly resolve every UAP encountered across the globe from 23 the distant past through today. 24 It is important to note, however, AARO is the 25 culmination of decades of DOD, intelligence community, and Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 10 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 congressionally-directed efforts to successfully resolve UAP 2 encountered first and foremost by U.S. military personnel, 3 specifically Navy and Air Force pilots. 4 The law establishing AARO is ambitious and it will take 5 time to realize the full mission. We cannot answer decades 6 of questions about UAP all at once but we must begin 7 somewhere. 8 While I assure you that AARO will follow scientific 9 evidence wherever it leads, I ask for your patience as DOD 10 first prioritizes the safety and security of our military 11 personnel and installations in all domains. 12 After all, UAP encountered first by highly capable DOD 13 and IC platforms featuring the nation's most advanced 14 sensors are those UAP most likely to be resolved by my 15 office, assuming the data can be collected. 16 If AARO succeeds in first improving the ability of 17 military personnel to quickly and confidently resolve UAP 18 they encounter I believe that in time we will have greatly 19 advanced the capability of the entire United States 20 government, including its civilian agencies, to resolve UAP. 21 However, it would be naive to believe that the 22 resolution of all UAP can be solely accomplished by the DOD 23 and IC alone. We will need to prioritize collection and 24 leverage authorities for monitoring all domains within the 25 continental United States. Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 11 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 AARO's ultimate success will require partnerships with 2 the interagency, industry partners, academia, and the 3 scientific community as well as the public. 4 AARO is partnering with the services, intelligence 5 community, DOE, as well as civil partners and across the 6 U.S. government to tap into the resources of the 7 interagency. 8 The UAP challenge is more an operational and scientific 9 issue than it is an intelligence issue. As such, we are 10 working with industry, academia, and the scientific 11 community which bring their own resources, ideas, and 12 expertise to this challenging problem set. 13 Robust collaboration and peer review across a broad 14 range of partners will promote greater objectivity and 15 transparency in the study of UAP. 16 I want to underscore today that only a very small 17 percentage of UAP reports display signatures that could 18 reasonably be described as anomalous. The majority of 19 unidentified objects reported to AARO demonstrate mundane 20 characteristics of balloons, unmanned aerial systems, 21 clutter, natural phenomena, or other readily explainable 22 sources. 23 While a large number of cases in our holdings remain 24 technically unresolved, this is primarily due to a lack of 25 data associated with those cases. Without sufficient data Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 12 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 we are unable to reach defendable conclusions that meet the 2 high scientific standards we set for resolution and I will 3 not close a case that I cannot defend the conclusions of. 4 I recognize that this answer is unsatisfying to those 5 who in good faith assume that what they see with their eyes, 6 with their cameras, and with their radars is 7 incontrovertible evidence of extraordinary characteristics 8 and performance. 9 Yet, time and again with sufficient scientific quality 10 data it is fact that UAP often but not always resolve into 11 readily explainable sources. Humans are subject to 12 deception and illusions, sensors to unexpected responses and 13 malfunctions and, in some cases, intentional interference. 14 Getting to the handful of cases that pass this level of 15 scrutiny is the mission of AARO. 16 That is not to say that UAP once resolved are no longer 17 of national security interest, however. On the contrary, 18 learning that a UAP is not of exotic origin but is instead 19 just a quadcopter or a balloon leads to the question of who 20 is operating that quadcopter and to what purpose. The 21 answers to those questions will inform potential national 22 security or law enforcement responses. 23 AARO is a member of the department's support to the 24 administration's Tiger Team effort to deal with 25 stratospheric objects such as the PRC high-altitude balloon. Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 13 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 When previously unknown objects are successfully identified 2 it is AARO's role to quickly and efficiently hand off such 3 readily explainable objects to the intelligence, law 4 enforcement, or operational safety communities for further 5 analysis and appropriate action. 6 In other words, AARO's mission is to turn UAP into SEP, 7 somebody else's problem. The U.S. government, the DOD, and 8 the IC in particular has tremendous capabilities to deal 9 with those encountered objects. 10 In the wake of the PRC HAB event the interagency is 11 working to better integrate and share information to address 12 identifiable stratospheric objects but that is not AARO's 13 lane. 14 Meanwhile, for the few cases in all domains -- space, 15 air, and sea -- that do demonstrate potentially anomalous 16 characteristics AARO exists to help the DOD, IC, and 17 interagency resolve those anomalous cases. 18 In doing so AARO is approaching these cases with the 19 highest level of objectivity and analytic rigor. This 20 includes physically testing and employing, modeling, and 21 simulation to validate our analyses and underlying theories, 22 then peer reviewing those results within the U.S. 23 government, industry partners, and appropriately cleared 24 academic institutions before reaching any conclusions. 25 I should also state clearly for the record that in our Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 14 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 research AARO has found no credible evidence thus far of 2 extraterrestrial activity, off world technology, or objects 3 that defy the known laws of physics. 4 In the event sufficient scientific data wherever 5 obtained that a UAP encountered can only be explained by 6 extraterrestrial origin, we are committed to working with 7 our interagency partners at NASA to appropriately inform 8 U.S. government's leadership of its findings. 9 For those few cases that have leaked to the public 10 previously and subsequently commented on by the U.S. 11 government I encourage those who hold alternative theories 12 or views to submit your research to credible peer-reviewed 13 scientific journals. AARO is working very hard to do the 14 same. That is how science works, not by blog or social 15 media. 16 We know that there is tremendous public interest in UAP 17 and a desire for answers from AARO. By its very nature the 18 UAP challenge has for decades lent itself to mystery, 19 sensationalism, and even conspiracy. 20 For that reason, AARO remains committed to 21 transparency, accountability, and to sharing as much with 22 the American public as we can consistent with our obligation 23 to protect not only intelligence sources and methods but 24 U.S. and allied capabilities. 25 However, AARO's work will take time if we are committed Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 15 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 to do it right. It means adhering to the scientific method 2 and the highest standards of research integrity. It means 3 being methodical and scrupulous. It means withholding 4 judgment in favor of evidence. 5 It means following the data where it leads wherever it 6 leads. It means establishing scientific peer-reviewed 7 theoretical underpinnings of observed data, and AARO is 8 committed to all of those standards. 9 I am proud of AARO's progress over the last nine 10 months. Much remains to be done but the hard work is 11 underway. 12 Thank you for your continued support, and before we 13 turn to questions I am going to walk you through some of our 14 analytical trends in a couple of cases that we have 15 prepared. 16 [Chart is shown.] 17 Mr. Kirkpatrick: So one of the things that AARO does 18 is high-integrity analysis, as I have said. This chart 19 represents the trend analysis of all the cases in AARO's 20 holdings to date. 21 What you will see on the left is a histogram of all of 22 our reported sightings as a function of altitude. So most 23 of our sightings occur in the 15,000- to 25,000-foot range 24 and that is ultimately because that is where a lot of our 25 aircraft are. Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 16 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 On the far right upper corner you will see a breakout 2 of the morphologies of all of the UAP that are reported. 3 Over half, about 52 percent, of what has been reported to us 4 are round or spheres. The rest of those break out into all 5 kinds of different other shapes. 6 The gray box is, essentially, there is no data on what 7 its shape is. Either it was not reported or the sensor did 8 not collect it. The bottom map is a heat map of all 9 reporting areas across the globe that we have available to 10 us. 11 What you will notice is that there is a heavy what we 12 call collection bias both in altitude and in geographic 13 location. That is where all of our sensors exist. That is 14 where our training ranges are. That is where our 15 operational ranges are. That is where all of our platforms 16 are. 17 In the middle what we have done is reduce the most 18 typically reported UAP characteristics to these fields, 19 mostly round, mostly one to four meters, white, silver, 20 translucent, metallic 10,000 to 30,000 feet with apparent 21 velocities from stationary to Mach two. 22 No thermal exhausts are usually detected. We get 23 intermittent radar returns, we get intermittent radio 24 returns, and we get intermittent thermal signatures. That 25 is what we are looking for in trying to understand what that Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 17 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 is. 2 Next slide. 3 So I am going to walk you through two cases that we 4 have declassified recently. This first one is an MQ-9 in 5 the Middle East observing that blow up, which is an apparent 6 spherical object, via EO sensors. Those are not IR. 7 If you want to go ahead and click that and play it, you 8 will see it come through the top of the screen -- there it 9 goes -- and then the camera will slew to follow it. You 10 will see it pop in and out of the field of view there. 11 This is, essentially, all of the data we have 12 associated with this event from some years ago. It is going 13 to be virtually impossible to fully identify that just based 14 off of that video. 15 Now, what we can do and what we are doing is keeping 16 that as part of that group of 52 percent to see what are the 17 similarities, what are the trends across all these, do we 18 see these in a particular distribution, do they all behave 19 the same or not. 20 As we get more data we will be able to go back and look 21 at these in a fuller context. How are we going to get more 22 data? We are working with the joint staff to issue guidance 23 to all the services and commands that will then establish 24 what are the reporting requirements, the timeliness, and all 25 of the data that is required to be delivered to us and Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 18 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 retained from all the associated sensors. 2 That, historically, has not been the case and it has 3 been happenstance that data has been collected. 4 Next slide. 5 This particular event, South Asia MQ-9 looking at 6 another MQ-9, and what is highlighted there in that red 7 circle is an object that flies through the screen. Unlike 8 the previous one, this one actually shows some really 9 interesting things that everyone thought was truly anomalous 10 to start with. 11 First of all, it is a high-speed object that is flying 12 in the field of regard of two MQ-9s. Second, it appears to 13 have this trail behind it, which at first blush you would 14 think that looks like a propulsion trail. 15 In reality, if you want to play the first slide we will 16 show you what that looks like in real time, or first video. 17 So we are looking at that. There it goes. Why do you not 18 play it again and then pause it halfway through? Right 19 there. All right. 20 You might be able to see that trail there behind it. 21 That is actually not a real trail. That is a sensor 22 artifact. Each one of those little blobs is actually a 23 representation of the object as it is moving through, and 24 later in the video as the camera slews that trail actually 25 follows the direction of the camera, not the direction of Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 19 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 the object. 2 We pulled these apart frame by frame. We were able to 3 demonstrate that that is essentially a readout overlap of 4 the image. It is a shadow image. It is not real. 5 Further, if you later follow this all the way to end it 6 starts to resolve itself into that blob that is in that 7 picture in the top right and if you squint it looks like an 8 aircraft because it actually turns out to be an aircraft. 9 Go ahead and put that on. 10 So you will see the tail sort of pop out there and so 11 what you are looking at is -- this is in the infrared -- 12 this is the heat signature off of the engines of a commuter 13 aircraft that happened to be flying in the vicinity of where 14 those two MQ-9s were at. 15 Why am I showing you this? So the first one that I 16 showed you we do not have resolved yet. That is an 17 unresolved case we are still studying. This one we can 18 resolve. But this is the kind of data that we have to work 19 with and the type of analysis that we have to do, which can 20 be quite extensive when you have to pull these apart frame 21 by frame. 22 Further, we are now matching all of this with the 23 models of all of those imaging sensors so that I can say -- 24 I can recreate this. I can actually show how the sensor is 25 going to respond. All of these sensors do not necessarily Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 20 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 respond the way you think they do, especially out in the 2 world and in the field. 3 And I believe that is all I have and I will open it up 4 for your questions. 5 [The prepared statement of Mr. Kirkpatrick follows:] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 21 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 Senator Gillibrand: Thank you so much, Dr. 2 Kirkpatrick. 3 Can you just give us some raw numbers of how many UAPs 4 you have analyzed, how many have been resolved, and sort of 5 in what buckets and then how many are still left to be 6 resolved? Just an update from your January public report 7 where it was 366 or something and about 150 were balloons 8 and about two dozen were drones. Just give us an update if 9 you have one. 10 Mr. Kirkpatrick: Sure. So as of this week we are 11 tracking over -- a total of 650 cases. Now, the report in 12 January basically said about half of the ones at that time, 13 about 150, were balloon -- were likely balloon like or 14 something like that. That does not mean they are resolved. 15 Senator Gillibrand: Oh, I see. 16 Mr. Kirkpatrick: Okay. So what -- let me walk 17 everyone through what our analytic process looks like. 18 We have, essentially, a five-step process. So we have 19 -- we get our cases in with all the data. We create a case 20 for that event. My team does a preliminary scrub of all of 21 those cases as they come in to sort out do we have any 22 information that says this is in one of those likely 23 categories -- it is likely a balloon, it is likely a balloon 24 -- a bird, it is likely some other object or we do not know. 25 Then we prioritize those based off of where they are. Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 22 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 Are they attached to a national security area? Does it show 2 some anomalous phenomenology that is of interest? If it is 3 just -- if it is just a spherical thing that is floating 4 around with the -- with the wind and it has no payload on it 5 that is going to be less important than something that has a 6 payload on it, which will be less important than something 7 that is maneuvering. 8 So there is sort of a hierarchy of just binning the 9 priorities because we cannot do all of them at once. Once 10 we do that and we prioritize them we take that package of 11 data in that case, and I have set up two teams. Think of 12 this as a red team, blue team, or competitive analysis. 13 I have an intelligence community team made up of 14 intelligence analysts and I have an S&T team made up of 15 scientists and engineers and the people that actually build 16 a lot of these sensors or physicists because if you are a 17 physicist you can do anything and -- but they are not 18 associated with the intel community. They are not intel 19 officers. They look at this through the lens of the sensor 20 of what the data says. 21 We give that package to both teams. The intelligence 22 community is going to look at it through the lens of the 23 intelligence record and what they assess and their intel 24 tradecraft, which they have very specific rules and 25 regulations on how they do that. Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 23 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 The scientific community, technical community, is going 2 to look at it through the lens of what is the data telling 3 me, what is the sensor doing, what would I expect a sensor 4 response to be, and back that out. 5 Those two groups give us their answers. We then 6 adjudicate. If they agree then I am more likely to close 7 that case if they agree on what it is. If they disagree we 8 will have an adjudication. We will bring them together. We 9 will take a look at the differences. We will adjudicate why 10 do you say one thing and you say another. 11 We will then come to a case -- a recommendation. That 12 will get written up by my team. That then goes to a senior 13 technical advisory group, which is outside of all of those 14 people made up of senior technical folks and intel analysts 15 and operators from retired, out of the community, and they 16 essentially peer review what that case recommendation is. 17 They write their recommendations. That comes back to 18 me. I review it, we make a determination, and I will sign 19 off one way or the other and then that will go out as the 20 case determination. 21 Once we have an approved web portal to hang the 22 unclassified stuff we will -- we would downgrade and 23 declassify things and put it out there. 24 In the meantime, we are putting a lot of these on our 25 classified web portal where we can then collaborate with the Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 24 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 rest of the community so they can see what is going on. 2 In a nutshell, that is the process. So because of 3 that, that takes time. So of those over 650 we have 4 prioritized about half of them to be of anomalous 5 interesting value and now we have to go through those and 6 go, how much do I have actual data for because if all I have 7 is an operator report that says I saw X, Y, or Z, my 8 assessment is A, B, or C, that is not really sufficient. 9 That is a good place to start but I have to have data. 10 I have to have radar data. I have to have EO data. I have 11 to have thermal data. I have to have overhead data, and we 12 need to look at all that. 13 Now, from a big picture perspective I still have -- 14 that is all -- they are still very valuable data and we are 15 looking at applying a lot of things -- new tools, analytic 16 tools, like natural language processing. So I can go across 17 all of those reports and look for commonalities. 18 How many of them are being described as round spherical 19 objects that are maneuvering? How many of them are not 20 maneuvering? How many of them seem to have a plume to it or 21 note? That is also going to be very valuable to give us 22 more of a global picture and a trends analysis of what are 23 we seeing and help us get to the determination. 24 So to go back to your question, ma'am, we have -- this 25 next quarterly report will be coming out here pretty soon. Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 25 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 Our next annual report you all have given us -- moved it up 2 to June, July -- we are going to be having that done about 3 that timeframe and we will have a -- we will be combining a 4 whole number of reports into that one. 5 I think we are currently sitting at around -- if I 6 remember correctly, we are around 20 to 30-ish or about 7 halfway through that analytic process. A handful of them 8 have made it all the way out to the other side, gone through 9 peer review. We have got case closure reports done and 10 signed. 11 We are going to get faster as we get more people on 12 board and we get more of the community tools to automate 13 some of the analysis that has to be done. 14 Senator Gillibrand: Thank you, Dr. Kirkpatrick. 15 Senator Ernst? 16 Senator Ernst: Thank you, Madam Chair. 17 And Dr. Kirkpatrick, the ODNI annual threat assessment 18 states that China's space activities are designed to erode 19 U.S. influence across military, technological, economic, and 20 diplomatic spheres. 21 Likewise, Russia will remain a key space competitor. 22 In the course of your work have you become aware of any 23 Chinese or Russia technical advancements to surveille or 24 attack U.S. interests? 25 Mr. Kirkpatrick: That is a great question. Part of Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 26 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 what we have to do as we go through these, especially the 2 ones that show signatures of advanced technical 3 capabilities, is determine if there is a foreign nexus. 4 That is really hard if what we observe does not have a 5 Chinese or Russian flag on the side of it. 6 Now, I think it is prudent to say of the -- of the 7 cases that are showing some sort of advanced technical 8 signature of which we are talking single percentages of the 9 entire population of cases we have. I am concerned about 10 what that nexus is and I have indicators that some are 11 related to foreign capabilities. 12 We have to investigate that with our IC partners and as 13 we get evidence to support that that gets then handed off to 14 the appropriate IC agency to investigate. Again, it becomes 15 an SEP at that point. 16 Senator Ernst: Yeah, somebody else's problem. 17 Mr. Kirkpatrick: Right. 18 Senator Ernst: Very good. Thank you. Yes. 19 Is it possible that the Chinese or Russian advanced 20 technologies could be causing some of these anomalous 21 behaviors? And you said there seems to be some indicators. 22 So just for us today could you describe a potential threat 23 that might exist out there if they are of foreign nexus? 24 Mr. Kirkpatrick: Sure. In order to do this research 25 appropriately we have to also be cognizant of what is the Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 27 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 state of the art in development across the S&T community. 2 What is -- what are the DARPAs of the world doing? What are 3 our -- what is the horizon scanning of emerging technologies 4 appropriate to this subcommittee? 5 What is happening out there, and if somebody could 6 accelerate that capability how would that manifest itself 7 and what would it look like and do those signatures match 8 what we are seeing? 9 There are emerging capabilities out there that in many 10 instances Russia and China -- well, China in particular are 11 on par or ahead of us in some areas. 12 So previously I used to be the Defense Department's 13 intelligence officer for science and technical intelligence. 14 That was our job was to look for what does all that look 15 like. And then my last several years, of course, in Space 16 Command doing space. 17 The adversary is not waiting. They are advancing and 18 they are advancing quickly. If I were to put on some of my 19 old hats I would tell you they are less risk averse at 20 technical advancement than we are. They are just willing to 21 try things and see if it works. 22 Are there capabilities that could be employed against 23 us in both and ISR and a weapons fashion? Absolutely. Do I 24 have evidence that they are doing it in these cases? No, 25 but I have concerning indicators. Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 28 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 Senator Ernst: Thank you. I appreciate that and that 2 is why it is so important that you are working with the 3 intelligence community as well because you have the science, 4 the data background, but you also need to know from various 5 sources what adversaries may be working on, correct? 6 Okay. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, 7 Madam Chair. 8 Senator Gillibrand: Senator Rosen? 9 Senator Rosen: Well, thank you, Chair Gillibrand, 10 Ranking Member Ernst. This is a really important hearing. 11 I would like to thank you, Dr. Kirkpatrick, for your 12 service to the country and as a former systems analyst 13 myself I really appreciate your flowchart, the description 14 of the process, and particularly the trends analysis, going 15 forward, how that is going to help us and you talked about 16 language, the large LLMs -- the large language models of 17 artificial intelligence. That is really going to help us in 18 the hunt forward, predictive analysis, I think, to some of 19 your point what we worry about. 20 But I want to focus on Nevada because I want to talk 21 about the impact of UAPs on aviation safety. So when it 22 comes to unidentified aerial phenomenal -- phenomena, excuse 23 me -- one of my first concerns is really about the safety of 24 Nevada's military aviator. 25 So we have airmen stationed at Nellis Air Force Base, Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 29 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 naval aviators flying at Naval Air Station Fallon, and 2 service members across -- from across the world training at 3 the Nevada test and training range. I know you know all 4 this. 5 And, unfortunately, the existence of advanced UAPs in 6 the U.S. airspace and over U.S. military installations not a 7 new phenomenon. The Navy has officially acknowledged that 8 between 2004 and 2021 11 near misses occurred involving UAPs 9 that required pilot action and follow-up reports. 10 As a result, in 2019 the Navy established a protocol 11 for pilots to report on their dangerous encounters. So 12 could you speak to any ongoing efforts within DOD to ensure 13 the safety of our aviators with a potential UAP encounter 14 and what is your relationship with NORTHCOM, NORAD, SPACECOM 15 when it comes to this immediate real-time response and how 16 -- they are there right there in the moment, right? 17 Mr. Kirkpatrick: Absolutely. That is a great 18 question. 19 So let me start with my relationship with the commands 20 are very good. I just came back from sitting down with 21 General VanHerck and all the all the J staff out at NORTHCOM 22 a couple weeks ago talking through exactly what we need to 23 do to help them get their arms around this. 24 We are also working very closely with Joint Staff and 25 the Joint Staff has just been very outstanding in helping Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 30 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 work through policy and guidance issues to the forces and to 2 the services, and I would like to just make sure that we 3 message back to all of the operators the importance of their 4 reporting and the fact that you are about to get a bunch of 5 new requirements that we are issuing through the Joint Staff 6 on all of the data that we are going to need you to save and 7 report back to us. 8 It is invaluable and we are working to try to take the 9 most advantage of that to learn what it is that we are 10 trying to mitigate. 11 To get directly to your question, the first thing that 12 we are doing is normalizing our reporting. We are 13 standardizing our reporting and the requirements associated 14 with that. 15 Guidance from the Joint Staff, I think, goes out maybe 16 this week, maybe next week, that we have been working with 17 them for some months that does exactly what I just said. It 18 gives them timelines. It gives them requirements. It gives 19 them here is all the data you have to have and you have got 20 to retain it. 21 The next thing that comes after that is a plan ord that 22 will go out to the commands for mitigation and response. So 23 there is a couple of things that we have to do. 24 One, I need to work with the commands and with the IC 25 and with our -- outside of our DOD and IC partners to extend Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 31 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 our collection posture targeted at some of these key areas 2 that you saw on that heat map that have a lot of activity so 3 that we can turn on extra collection when an operator sees 4 something. 5 So part of this is generating as a response function in 6 what we call a tactic technique and procedure for an 7 operator when he sees something, calls back to the 8 operations floor. They can turn on additional collection. 9 What does that collection look like? How do I bring all 10 that together so I can get more data on what is that thing? 11 Senator Rosen: Can I ask really quickly -- 12 Mr. Kirkpatrick: Sure. 13 Senator Rosen: -- do you have the authorities you need 14 to extend your collection posture between agencies or 15 branches of the military? Because that seems to me to maybe 16 be a sticking point. I know my time is just about up. 17 I would love to follow up about your risk management 18 methodologies for some of these. But do you need any 19 authorities that you do not have to get the data you need? 20 Mr. Kirkpatrick: There are some authorities that we 21 need. We currently are operating under Title 10 authorities 22 but we have good relationships across the other agencies. 23 But having additional authorities for collection tasking, 24 counter-intelligence -- 25 Senator Rosen: That is something -- Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 32 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 Mr. Kirkpatrick: -- those are all things that would be 2 helpful, yes. 3 Senator Rosen: Thank you. 4 Senator Gillibrand: To follow up, Dr. Kirkpatrick, 5 will you help us write that language so we can put it in the 6 defense bill this year so that we know what authorities you 7 need? 8 Mr. Kirkpatrick: Mmm-hmm. We can do that. 9 Senator Gillibrand: Thank you. 10 We are going to start a second round. So if you want 11 to stay you can ask another round. I have at least three 12 more questions. 13 Senator Rosen: I have about a million more questions. 14 Senator Gillibrand: Do you want to -- do you want to 15 go right now so you -- in case you have to leave? 16 Senator Rosen: I feel like I do. 17 Senator Gillibrand: Yeah, go ahead. 18 Senator Rosen: And if you could do that that would be 19 great. I am going to stay on the drones issue because, 20 obviously, of the Air Force Base. We talked about those in 21 -– the last category is the Chinese spy balloon. It did 22 cross through the U.S. airspace, shot down by a Sidewinder 23 missile fired from an F-22. 24 Sidewinders costs us close to half a million dollars 25 each. So given the cost of these missiles, the cost per Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 33 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 flight, all of these other things, like I said, a follow-up 2 from the authorities or methodologies to data collection. 3 They can help us in other ways. 4 But how do you think we can develop a sustainable 5 affordable response to UAPs where we need to that may -- 6 that will definitely violate our airspace -- not may, 7 definitely violate our airspace every chance that they can 8 get because they are adversaries. They want this 9 information. 10 So what do you think some cost effective measures might 11 be that we can get what we need out of that or take them 12 down, whatever is appropriate -- whatever the appropriate 13 measure is? Let us put it that way. 14 Mr. Kirkpatrick: So that is actually wrapped into the 15 plan ord that we are working with Joint Staff to send out -- 16 what do the commands need from both a capabilities 17 perspective for kinetic and nonkinetic engagements, what are 18 the response functions of the particular wings or Navy, what 19 have you, and then what authorities do they need. 20 So one of the -- one of the challenges that we have 21 seen is there is an authorities issues with the -- with the 22 owners, operators of those ranges that they need to work 23 through and we are working that with the Joint Staff and 24 OSD. 25 So big picture we need to do all that. If you want to Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 34 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 get down to the specifics for -- there are nonkinetic 2 options to engage pretty much everything whether it is 3 electronic warfare, whether it is laser technologies -- 4 Senator Rosen: That is where this data -- 5 Mr. Kirkpatrick: That is right. 6 Senator Rosen: Having the good data collection, 7 predictive analytics, you can -- 8 Mr. Kirkpatrick: Correct. Inform -- 9 Senator Rosen: -- possibly make some assumptions on 10 possibilities. 11 Mr. Kirkpatrick: That is right, and we will inform 12 recommendations back to the department on here is what could 13 work, here is what we have seen work, here is what does not 14 work. 15 Senator Rosen: Thank you so much. Thank you, Madam 16 Chair. Appreciate it. 17 Senator Gillibrand: Thank you very much. 18 I just want to just talk a little bit about your 19 logistics, who you report to, how that is going, whether you 20 need different reporting lines. 21 By congressional legislation your office is 22 administratively located with the office of the Under 23 Secretary of Defense for Intelligence Security but you are 24 not substantively subordinate to the under secretary. 25 Rather, you are a direct report to the deputy Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 35 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 secretary. Are you taking direction directly from the 2 deputy secretary? Are you able to meet and brief the deputy 3 secretary? Is the office of USDINS working with you to have 4 the right framework? 5 Mr. Kirkpatrick: So USDINS and the -- I currently 6 report to USDINS until they come up with the plan for how 7 they are going to implement legislation. 8 DOD and DNI are working through that now. I would have 9 to refer you back to USDINS on what their plan is. 10 Senator Gillibrand: Do I need to update your reporting 11 structure in the next defense bill or is this something that 12 you think will work its way out or does it need further 13 clarity? 14 Mr. Kirkpatrick: I think they are planning on coming 15 back to you with an answer on what that plan is and I think 16 at that time that will inform what you want to do. 17 Senator Gillibrand: Okay. Thank you. 18 As you know, Dr. Kirkpatrick, Congress has mandated 19 that your office establish a discoverable and accessible 20 electronic method for potential witnesses of UAP incidents 21 and potential participants in government UAP-related 22 activities to contact your office and tell their stories. 23 Congress also set up a process whereby people are 24 subject to nondisclosure agreements preventing them from 25 disclosing what they may have witnessed or participated in Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 36 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 could tell you what they know without risk of retribution 2 from the -- or violation of their NDAs. 3 Have you submitted a public-facing website product for 4 approval to your superiors and how long has it been under 5 review? 6 Mr. Kirkpatrick: I have. We submitted the first 7 version of that before Christmas. 8 Senator Gillibrand: And do you have an estimate from 9 them when they will respond and when you will have feedback 10 on that? 11 Mr. Kirkpatrick: No, I do not. 12 Senator Gillibrand: Okay. We will author a letter 13 asking for that timely response to your superiors. 14 When do you expect that you will establish a public- 15 facing discoverable and access portal for people to use to 16 contact your office as the law requires? 17 Mr. Kirkpatrick: So I would like to, first, say thank 18 you all very much for referring the witnesses that you have 19 thus far to us. I appreciate that. We have brought in 20 nearly two dozen so far. It has been very helpful. 21 I would ask that you continue to do that until we have 22 an approved plan. We have a multi-phased approach for doing 23 that that we have been socializing and have submitted for 24 approval sometime. Once that happens then we should be able 25 to push all that out and get this a little more automated. Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 37 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 Senator Gillibrand: Great. 2 Mr. Kirkpatrick: What I would ask, though, is as you 3 all continue to refer to us and refer witnesses to us I 4 would appreciate if you do that. Please try to prioritize 5 the ones that you want to do because we do have a small 6 research staff dealing with that. 7 Senator Gillibrand: Thank you. And then do you have 8 any plans for public engagement that you want to share now 9 that you think it is important that the public knows what 10 the plan is? 11 Mr. Kirkpatrick: So we have a number of public 12 engagement recommendations, according to our strategic plan. 13 All of those have been submitted for approval. They have to 14 be approved by USDINS. We are waiting for approval to go do 15 that. 16 Senator Gillibrand: Okay. I will follow up on that. 17 And then my last question is about the integration of 18 department's UAP operations, research, analysis, and 19 strategic communications. During the recent UAP incidents 20 over North America it did not appear that you were allowed 21 to play that role. 22 Do you agree that the public perception is generally 23 that you and your office did not appear to play a major role 24 in the department's response to the detection of objects 25 over North America? Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 38 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 What can you tell us that is going on behind the scenes 2 from your perspective, and in the after action assessment 3 process is there awareness that there is a need to operate 4 differently in the future and a commitment to doing so? 5 Mr. Kirkpatrick: When the -- when the objects were 6 first detected I got called by Joint Staff leadership to 7 come in late one night to review events as they were 8 unfolding and to give them an assessment based on what we 9 knew at that time. 10 I did that. I worked with the director of Joint Staff, 11 the J2 and the J3 that night and over the couple of 12 following days on what are the types of things that we are 13 tracking from an unidentified object perspective, what 14 databases do we use those sorts of things for known objects, 15 known tracking. 16 Beyond that, the response I would have to -- I would 17 have to refer you back to the White House for the decision 18 on how they did the response. We did not play a role in 19 what you would respond other than that initial advice on 20 what we are seeing and how we are seeing it. 21 Senator Gillibrand: Thank you. 22 Senator Ernst? 23 Senator Ernst: Thank you, Madam Chair. 24 Dr. Kirkpatrick, I know that your office has gotten a 25 lot of attention recently and, of course, any new agency Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 39 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 there tends to be a push to increase size and funding. We 2 want to make sure that you are able to meet your goals. 3 But what I also need to ensure is that we are not 4 duplicating or replicating existing functions and creating 5 redundancy within DOD and the interagency. 6 So what steps are you taking right now to make sure 7 that your particular office and function is unique to any of 8 the other agencies that might be involved in these types of 9 cases? 10 Mr. Kirkpatrick: Yeah, that is a great question. 11 So I would like to lay down here is one of my -- sort 12 of my mission and my goal and my vision here. So the vision 13 is at one point -- at some point in the future you should 14 not need an AARO. 15 If I am successful in what I am doing we should be able 16 to normalize everything that we are doing into existing 17 processes, functions, agencies, and organizations and make 18 that part of their mission and their role. 19 Right now, the niche that we form is really going after 20 the unknowns. If you -- I think you articulated it early on 21 this is a hunt mission for what might somebody be doing in 22 our backyard that we do not know about. 23 All right. Well, that is what we are doing. But at 24 some point we should be able to normalize that. That is why 25 it is so important the work we are doing with Joint Staff to Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 40 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 normalize that into DOD policy and guidance. 2 We are bringing in all of our interagency partners. So 3 NASA is providing a liaison for us. I have FBI liaison. I 4 have OSI liaison. I have service liaisons. Half of my 5 staff come from the IC. Half of my staff come from other 6 scientific and technical backgrounds. I have DOE. 7 And so what we are trying to do is ensure, again, as I 8 make UAP into SEP they get handed off to the people that 9 that is their mission to go do so that we are not 10 duplicating that. 11 I am not going to go chase the Chinese high-altitude 12 balloon, for example. That is not my job. It is not an 13 unknown and it is not anomalous anymore. Now it goes over 14 to them. 15 Senator Ernst: Very good. Thank you, Madam Chair. 16 Senator Gillibrand: Thank you. 17 I want to just follow up on the filters for 18 surveillance. Outside observers have speculated that DOD 19 sets filters on certain sensors to eliminate objects that 20 are moving really fast or slow because what we are looking 21 for militarily are conventional aircraft and missiles. UAP 22 that does not fit into these programs would thereby be 23 weeded out and never noticed. 24 This speculation was proven to be true during the UAP 25 incidents over North America where DOD publicly acknowledged Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 41 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 that we were able to start seeing these UAPs only when we 2 opened up these filters. 3 Obviously, our military operators cannot be overloaded 4 with objects that are not conventional aircraft or missiles. 5 Can you nonetheless make sure that the raw data is being 6 captured and subsequently processed so that your office 7 knows what is really out there and is that going to cost 8 money? Will you expect to pay for that money out of AARO's 9 budget? 10 Mr. Kirkpatrick: One of the key tenets that we are 11 trying to do in our science plan is understand what those 12 signatures are. So we get all the raw, for example, radar 13 data prior to the scrubbing and filtering to allow it to 14 enter into our weapon systems and our detection systems. 15 We are now taking all that data and cross correlating 16 it to what pilots are saying they are seeing or other 17 observations from other operators. 18 What that allows us to do is then see if there are any 19 signatures in that data that I can pull out, generate what 20 we will call automatic target recognition algorithms that 21 allow us to then use that signature associated with a 22 observed UAP whatever that UAP may be. 23 We will then make those recommendations of what those 24 changes should be back to the department. So the deputy 25 secretary had asked me last October to make those Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 42 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 recommendations, what changes do we need to make to radars, 2 to platforms, to detection systems and algorithms, to pull 3 on those algorithms and make those changes. That is going 4 to take some time. 5 That is where the research and development comes in. 6 It is not -- it is not instantaneous. Right now, a lot of 7 the -- I will not say a lot of the things that fall outside 8 of the ranges of those filters have been identified by 9 people in the loop and you cannot have people in the loop 10 all the time. It is just not cost effective. 11 So part of our budget is working through what does that 12 look like and then making those recommendations back to the 13 big program offices for them to put into -- changes in 14 acquisition. 15 Senator Gillibrand: My last question is about the 16 academic community. Can you give us an update on sort of 17 how you collaborate with the academic community and whether 18 -- how the independent study being done by NASA complements 19 AARO's work? 20 Mr. Kirkpatrick: Sure. 21 Two questions so I will try to make it quick. In 1979 22 Carl Sagan said extraordinary claims require extraordinary 23 evidence. I would go one step further and I would say 24 extraordinary claims require not only extraordinary evidence 25 but extraordinary science and so how do you do that? Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 43 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 You do that with the scientific method. So as AARO is 2 developing and implementing its science plan it has to do so 3 grounded in a solid foundation of scientific theory across 4 the entire range of hypotheses that have been presented for 5 what UAP are. 6 That range spans adversary breakthrough technology, on 7 one hand, known objects and phenomena in the middle, all the 8 way to the extreme theories of extraterrestrials. 9 All of that has physics-based signatures associated 10 with it, whether it is theoretical from the academic 11 community known from things like hypersonic weapons or 12 adversary breakthrough technologies, as we have talked about 13 before, or the known objects that we have to go measure. 14 The idea is across that entire range you have to come 15 up with peer-reviewed scientific basis for all of it. The 16 academic community plays a very big role on the -- one end 17 of the spectrum, the intelligence community on the other end 18 of the spectrum, and then measurement in the middle. 19 Once I have those signatures identified in validated 20 peer-reviewed documents then I have something to point to 21 for all that data because all that data is going to match 22 one of those signatures, and then I can go, well, it is that 23 and not that or it is that, and that helps us go through all 24 that. 25 Where NASA comes in and the study that they are doing, Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 44 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 which I am supporting, is really looking at the unclassified 2 data sources that might be used to augment our classified 3 data sources to understand if there is a signature there we 4 can pull on. So very similar to the radars but civil 5 capability. 6 For example, we have a lot of climate science 7 satellites, for example, that look at Earth. Lots of them. 8 How many of those is the data valuable in seeing these 9 kinds of objects? The challenge in that is those platforms 10 do not necessarily have the resolution you need. 11 If you remember the slide I put up there with the 12 trends, the size of the objects we are looking for are 13 typically reported to be one to four meters. 14 Well, the resolution of many of the climate science 15 civil satellites is much larger than that, which means you 16 would have a hard time picking out something that is smaller 17 than a pixel on the imagery on the data. 18 That is not to say all of it is not useful and there 19 are ways of pulling through that data and going through. 20 That is what NASA is focused on right now is what is -- what 21 are some other data sources that could be used. 22 In addition, things like open source and crowd sourcing 23 of data -- we are exploring public-private partnerships, 24 ma'am, as you know -- we have talked about it in the past -- 25 to look at is there a way to smartly crowd source additional Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 45 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 data that might be useful to augment some of my classified 2 sources and what does that look like and how would we do it 3 so that we are not overwhelmed by everybody who wants to 4 take a picture of everything. 5 Senator Gillibrand: Thank you. 6 Is there anything -- is there anything else you would 7 like to tell the committee before we close? 8 Or do you have another round? 9 Senator Ernst: No. 10 Senator Gillibrand: Yeah. Do you have anything else 11 you would like to tell the committee before we close? 12 Mr. Kirkpatrick: Thank you very much for allowing us 13 to come and share a little bit of insight into what AARO is 14 up to and what we are doing. 15 I hope to be able to share a whole lot more in the 16 future. We have a lot of work to do. So if you do not hear 17 from me outside it is because we have got a lot of work to 18 do. 19 Senator Gillibrand: Thank you so much, Dr. 20 Kirkpatrick. Thank you for the hearing. 21 Mr. Kirkpatrick: Thank you. 22 Audience Member: Excuse me. I drove 600 miles to come 23 here. I -- and I presented a book to David Spergel, who I 24 know is associated with the gentleman here. But I do not 25 have flying saucers. We just saw the first one. They had Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 46 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 no explanation for it. I would like to provide the evidence 2 for it. It is on my video, as well as ancient evidence of 3 cave drawings that look identical to that disc. 4 And what that would tell us is what [inaudible] and the 5 corporal has been saying. Assuming that they are coming 6 here is the assumption. A terrible thing to do. If we can 7 prove that they have always existed then they are not 8 changing in model, size, appearance, then it would answer 9 the question of these people in the sky have always 10 [inaudible]. 11 But I have had to struggle trying to get the evidence 12 we saved and I did contact Neil deGrasse Tyson and he 13 informed me with an email, which I put in my book and about 14 these crafts. I find them and film them and send them to 15 everybody I can. 16 He told me to literally take them to the proper 17 authorities and that I could get my evidence looked at and 18 that is what I am doing today. I drove all the way from 19 Ohio, Mr. Kirkpatrick. 20 Senator Gillibrand: Dr. Kirkpatrick is the person -- 21 the perfect person to give your evidence to -- 22 Audience Member: Yeah, I appreciate it. 23 Senator Gillibrand: -- and eventually we will have a 24 website where you could just submit it and not have to go 25 600 miles. Today, since you are here, please submit your Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 47 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 evidence to Dr. Kirkpatrick and if you have copies we will 2 take your copies. 3 Audience Member: I have footage. I have grown up in 4 Albuquerque, New Mexico. 5 Audience Member: Same here. 6 Audience Member: I have on my phone three different 7 examples of glowing dots flying in circles or going over 8 Sandia Labs and Kirkland Air Force Base. 9 Senator Gillibrand: Yeah. Yes. 10 Audience Member: They have come down frequently and 11 consistently and loiter over our advanced weapons and 12 manufacturing industry, monitor it using advanced means like 13 the -- 14 Senator Gillibrand: Yeah. We are very interested in 15 that data. 16 Audience Member: The vehicles tend to be about 10 17 meters in size and the data that Dr. Kirkpatrick gave about 18 the signatures of one to three gigahertz is the propulsion 19 field interacting with the atmospheric water -- the water in 20 the atmosphere. 21 The higher gigahertz range comes from the effects of 22 the propulsion field reducing the initial mass of the craft 23 so they can do these outstanding maneuvers of [inaudible] 24 degrees or rotating and flying off at hypersonic velocity. 25 There is knowledge within the weapons industry. More Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 48 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 people need to come forward. We need to pull up engineers 2 out of Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, and allow them the freedom 3 to speak and stop the secrecy. Thank you for hearing me. 4 Senator Gillibrand: My office can be a clearinghouse 5 for this information. 6 Audience Member: Yes, Ms. Gillibrand. I have got 7 video of it. 8 Senator Gillibrand: If you want to submit to me the 9 names and the people that you want Dr. Kirkpatrick has 10 contacts. I can do that, and any video that you want to 11 give us, eventually we will have a platform so this can be 12 done automatically. But I could [inaudible] and give it to 13 Dr. Kirkpatrick. If you have it on a DVD -- 14 Audience Member: I want to thank you. 15 Senator Gillibrand: -- to get it to him directly. 16 Audience Member: I am a Marine so my hearing is a 17 little blunt. So if I could leave this with you -- 18 Senator Gillibrand: Yes. 19 Audience Member: -- and somebody can give it to Dr. 20 Kirkpatrick would be great. 21 Senator Gillibrand: Yes. 22 Audience Member: That is my whole point. I just leave 23 it on this desk? 24 Senator Gillibrand: Yeah. Yeah. I will take it -- 25 Audience Member: I appreciate it. Thank you so much Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022 49 Scheduling@TP.One800.FOR.DEPO www.TP.One(800.367.3376) 1 for looking into it. 2 Senator Gillibrand: Do you have a card? We have to 3 give our business cards to the chair. The first draft and 4 then [inaudible] are you done with it? 5 Staff: Sure. 6 Senator Gillibrand: Yeah. Why don't you take it since 7 you are actually going to -- I am going to give it to Dr. 8 Kirkpatrick and then [inaudible]. 9 [Whereupon, at 12:08 p.m., the hearing was adjourned.] 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Page determined to be Unclassified Reviewed by Chief of Staff, AARO IAW FY24 NDAA, Section 1841(a)(1)(C) Date: 2/6/2025 022