733667-001-009

RECORD OF INTERVIEW WITH JAL FIRST OFFICER On January 5, 1987, Inspector Peter E. Beckner, AAL-207, and Japanese Interpertor Sayoko Mimoto, FAA Airways Facilities, interviewed JAL First Officer Takanori Tamefuji at the Federal Building, Anchorage, Alaska. The interview was conducted for the purpose of gathering first-hand witness testimony with regard to a sighting on November 17, 1986, by First Officer Tamefuji of an unidentified flying object. The following is a record of the interview: P. Beckner ? P. Beckner Conducted at this time in the Flight Standards Division Office, this is Pete Beckner with AAL-207, and we're here with First Officer, Mr. Tamefuji. (unintelligible) Did I say that correctly? T. Tamefuji Tam -a -fuji. P. Beckner Okay, thank you, and Sayoko Mimoto from A A -ah, Airways Facilities in AL-400. To begin the questioning, I'd like to first of all ask you, um, is this the first time anything of this nature is, have you seen this sort of thing? T. Tamefuji This, this is, is my first time. P. Beckner First time, okay. What, if you will, if you could describe for me, what exactly did you see? And I'll provide the paper for you so, here, just kind of let me know, if you would, just describe what you saw. Was there more than just one thing that you saw? And ah, if you would just kinda put it down for ah, for me on paper if that's okay. T. Tamefuji First off Captain Terauchi, what ah, Captain Terauchi saw was ah, I couldn't see. P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji And ah, first part of the incident P. Beckner Incident? T. Tamefuji Yeah. P. Beckner That's fine. T. Tamefuji Ahhh ••• about ten minutes I could see, but after that time, hummmm ••• I couldn't see because of my seat is co-pilot right- hand side P. Beckner Right. T. Tamefuji and ah, the object was in left-hand side ••• P. Beckner Okay. T. Tamefuji and very dark vision, so • • • P. Beckner Okay. T. Tamefuji so I couldn't see, but ah at first ah, humm, (unintelligible) what can I write ••• P. Beckner Just kinda picture in your mind what you saw • • • T. Tamefuji Humm. P. Beckner and then put that on paper, and I'm going to shut the door here. T. Tamefuji Humm, it was ah, left right clock head..-on traffic ••• ?.Beckner Okay. T. Tamefuji I just to see and ah, humm, left right? P. Beckner Yes T. Tamefuji Ah, in night flight head..-on traffic we can see just ah, light • P. Beckner Lights, okay. T. Tamefuji we cannot see the total shape . . . P. Beckner Shape T. Tamefuji shape P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji so (unintelligible) I thought it was ah, head-on traffic P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji Mmmm, so I couldn't, can't write ah, exactly . . . P. Beckner Would you say it was just . . . ? T. Tamefuji Just light . . . P. Beckner Oka y it was more than, s..--was there more than like what would s a y t her e w as s i x lights . . . ? 2 you T. Tamefuji Nol Nol P. Beckner • would you say there was a multitude of lights? T. Tamefuji Ah, (unintelligible) just I want to describe just ah, light, only light. P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji Yeah, so if ah, there was something flying, but ah, I couldn't see at that time. P. Beckner Okay, ah was there, was there clear night? T. Tamefuji Yes • P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji • clear. P. Beckner And you could distinguish this lights as being different from the star • • • ? T. Tamefuji NNNooo • P. Beckner ••• from the stars? T. Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner T.Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji Different is fine. Okay (unintelligible) Alright ah um. How was it first detected? Was it ~ someone saw it visually, or did you see it on radar? Who, well, how was it first found? What's found, humm? Er, first sighted? Ah, as you know, all the crew ah ••• Right must watch outside? Right So ah, I must watch instrument and ah, outside so, and ah, as normal flight so I have traffic inside, also Captain traffic, inside, but ah, I'm not sure but a engineer landing calculate so he was just sit down back desk calculate ••• P. Beckner (unintelligible) T. Tamefuji departing direction 3 P. Beckner Right T. Tamefuji so maybe he couldn't see at that time, but the Captain and me (unintelligible) have ah, had traffic inside ••• P. Beckner Visually saw . . . T. Tamefuji Yes P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji (unintelligible) I saw there was two small aircraft. P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji And two small aircraft(unintelligible) P. Beckner That's what you saw? T. Tamefuji Yes P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji And ah, and ah, I ask Captain ah, we should ask ATC so ah, I Air Traffic P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji So as I thought, ah, very same similiar altitude and Captain said, ah, hum, I don't remember exactly but ah, ah, he said -ah, but a little bit high or same level, but I though little bit lower, you can know ••• P. Beckner Right T. Tamefuji it is very difficult to (unintelligible) head-on traffic P. Beckner Right T. Tamefuji so ah . . . P. Beckner It was actually at your twelve o'clock . . . T. Tamefuji No P. Beckner • then T. Tamefuji Slightly • P. Beckner • • • or slightly 4 T. Tamefuji . left-hand and ah, ten or eleven . . . P. Beckner Ten or eleven? T. Tamefuji Right P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji And I thought that it was low . . . P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji And' (unintelligible) I thought ah, traffic way, I image aircraft ah, lighting, navigation lights P. Be'ckner Right T. Tamefuji and landing lights ••• P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji (unintelligible) ..... light P. Beckner Right T. Tamefuji but ah, it is my (unintelligible) for now I thought it was an aircraft so • s. Mi mo to I thought it was an aircraft. ' P. Beckner Okay s. Mi mo to Ah . P. Beckner Did you in your mind try to make it . . . T. Tamefuji Yes P. Beckner . look like an aircraft? T. Tamefuji Yeah P. Beckner I can do the same thing, ••• T. Tamefuji Yes P. Bec kner • so ah ••• I understand. T. Tamefuji And, but ah, very strange ah, I ah, it was too many lights ••• P. Beckner Too many? T. Tamefuji Ye s 5 P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji But so it was so luminous, I don't mean luminous ah, it was too much forever. P. Beckner Right, okay. How 'bout the colors of the lights? Is that also • T. Tamefuji Humm, might Captain, maybe for different thing and Mr. Fukuda, maybe different thing, but ah, ah I say it was the aircraft so I thought but actually I think • P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji I think ah, salmon, just like Christmas assorted ••• P. Beckner Okay, okay assorted. T. Tamefuji and ah, I remember, red or orange, hum, and a white landing light, just like landing light. And weak green, ah, blinking • s. Mi mo to Flashing . P. Beckne Flashing . s. Mi mo to . . . blinking, blinking P. Beckner Blinking s. Mi mo to (unintelligible) yes P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji How should I say -looks just like this, (hand-signs were made by Mr. Tamefuji) moving like in one . s. Mi mo to Oh, swinging P. Beckner Swinging? T. Tamefuji (Japanese) P. Beckner Movement T. Tamefuji Yes, and ah, ah if there was, there are ah, how should I say, very good formation flight P. Beckner Close formation flight? T. Tamefuji Yes close. 6 P. Beckner Okay ••• Does - I - I did not meet the Captain so I don't know, but does he wear glasses? T. Tamefuji Humm, no P. Beckner No, do you wear glasses, sir? T. Tamefuji Humm, ••• P. Beckner For flying. T. Tamefuji Oh, I use, but ah, at that time I don't wear, but ah, I how should I say • • • but I do use it • S. Mimoto He usually wears glasses but at that time he was not wearing glasses • T. Tamefuji No, I don not mean it. I normally do not wear glasses. P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji 'The licensing requires me to wear glasses. S. Mimoto Oh, I'm sorry, he didn't mean that. T. Tamefuji I need no glasses in daily life. s. Mi mo to Oh, in daily life he does not wear glasses. P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji But' ah, ah, result of the physical exam, I am required to .... wear glasses . s. Mimoto Oh, okay ••• P. Beckner (unintelligible) S. Mimoto 'The physical requires him to wear glasses. to P. Beckner Okay, how 'bout "" how 'bout the flight engineer, does he ••• T. Tamefuji Hummm P. Beckner do you remember if he wore ••• T. Tamefuji I don't remember. P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji But ah, I have numerous visions ••• S. Mimoto (unintelligible) 7 P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji and I use ah, humm ••• how should I say? s. Mimoto I will not -I do not need to wear glasses in daily life. P. Beckner Okay, okay. Now -the time of the incident, when - when you guys first saw the objects, ah what were the lighting conditions outside? Was it dark . . . T. Tamefuji Hum P. Beckner . or was it dusk? Or was the sun still up er, how would you describe . . .? T. Tamefuji Just after sunset . P. Beckner Just after sunset. T. Tamefuji (unintelligible) P. Beckner Right T. Tamefuji dark, dark red. P. Beckner Dark red, okay. T. Tamefuji But almost dark I must say night . P. Beckner Okay, you could see the stars real clearly? T. Tamefuji Yes, yes. P. Beckner Okay. Okay, was the -what you saw -was it real obvious to you? T. Tamefuji Yes P. Beckner Okay. Ah, at what point did you see it on the radar? T. Tamefuji Humm, what point mean? P. Beckner What -you saw the lights, and then how much later before you saw something on the radar? On your -your radar in the aircraft, or did you see it on the radar? T. Tamefuji I just don't understand. S. Mimoto When did you see the object on the radar? T. Tamefuji Oh, and, hum ah, I can't tell you exactly P. Beckner Well ah ••• 8 .. T. Tamefuji . but ah, at first we have in flight . . . ? Hum huh. T. Tamefuji . at ATC, air traffic, and no traffic, so ..... we are suprised . P. Beckner Yeah . . . T. Tamefuji ••• and ah, Captain operates the radar ••• P. Beckner Radar, okay yeah ••• T. Tamefuji and so Captain ah, try to search object by the radar ••• P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji we fix -ah, give to ten minutes (unintelligible). P. Beckner Okay, and then what did you see on the rad ... were you able to see the radar from where you were sitting? T. Tamefuji ? P. Beckner Okay, what did you see on the radar as far as ••• T. Tamefuji Humm, just like ah -ah, traffic, other traffic, but ah, I thought a little bit large ••• P. Becker Um hum T. Tamefuji echos P. Beckner Large echos, okay. Was it ah, what ... I understand you have color radar in ... in the . T. Tamefuji Yes P. Beckner . aircraft. What color was the . . .? T. Tamefuji Humm I thought ah, green. P. Beckner Green? T. Tamefuji Yes P. Beckner Okay. And about what range did ... did you ... did you guys . . .? T. Tamefuji Humm, twenty miles . . . P. Beckner Twenty? 9 T. Tamefuji and ah, seven to eight miles to object. P. Beckner Okay, from you, from you. Did it pretty much maintain that position for most of the flight? T. Tamefuji Humm, ah P. Beckner Or did it move around a whole lot, or did it ••• T. Tamefuji No, no (unintelligible) oblong? P. Beckner Right T. Tamefuji so ah, hummm, don't -it didn't move just like this, just like this ••• P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji • just like a other traffic stay on, but ah, I can't say, it was moving or not moving. P. Beckner Okay, it sort of seemed to stay in formation with you, would that be • • • T. Tamefuji Hummmrn • P. Beckner . . . seven to eight mile formation? T. Tamefuji Hummm, formation means same position? P. Beckner Right .... same general direction in this case • T. Tamefuji Oh . P. Beckner Seem to travel with you? T. Tamefuji Htimm, I saw ah, light, just like landing lights, so ah, I'm pilot it has landing light so, head""'°n traffic P. Beckner Right. T. Tamefuji ••• at that time, but ah, I can ~ I cannot say which direction they move. P. Beckner Okay, okay. '!his head..-on traffic, how long did you see this total, the length of time that you saw it? T. Tamefuji Humm, humm P. Beckner Just you. T. Tamefuji Htimm, five minutes at first inside and ah, five minutess Captain and ATC call short conversation ••• 10 P. Beckner Conversation, right. T. Tamefuji ••• (unintelligible) hummm, hummm I can't say (unintelligible) five minutes ••• P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji hummm, and ah, I have ah, monitoring, monitor so inside and outside • • • P. Beckner Okay, inside and an outside, yeah. T. Tamefuji ah, while doing those, it became unvisible. S. Mimoto While looking outside and looking on the inside, and then so he couldn't see anymore. P. Beckner Okay, so -you sa -you saw the head-on traffic -whatever we want to call that -for about five, five minutes, ten minutes, somewhere in there? T. Tamefuji Humm, yes P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji Yeah P. Beckner Okay, ah, was there anything else that you saw aside from this - from this pattern here, was there, was there anything else that you saw? T. Tamefuji Humm, you mean ah, other stars or what? P. Beckner Other than, I mean as far as these obj -the objects were concerned, was there any other ah, features that you saw, was there any shape that you saw, or you just saw the head-on light? T. Tamefuji Yes, and of course it ah, was clear so ground you could see ••• P. Beckner Okay you saw • • • T. Tamefuji ••• but ah, hummm, how should I say, but ah, the traffic, I mean the UFO • • • P. Beckner Yes T. Tamefugi • it's ah, so, I'm sure it was not on ground ••• P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji (unintelligible) 11 P. Beckner Yeah, could you see the horizon, the . . . T. Tamefuji Yes P. Beckner . mountains? T. Tamefuji Yes, ah, perfect. P. Beckner Right T. Tamefuji 1his is ah, horizon P. Beckner Of the horizon? T. Tamefuji and I could see . . . P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji the horizon. P. Beckner Okay. So these were above the horizon line? T. Tamefuji (unintelligible) I don't mean ah, (unintelligible) P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji Ah, we can see the flying over aircraft ah, near the horizon P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji (unintelligible) P. Beckner Right T. Tamefuji • so ••• P. Beckner You saw this • T. Tamefuji • I cannot say it was ah, (unintelligible) P. Beckner Okay, okay, um somewhere down, I guess by Fairbanks area, you guys, the Captain or yourself requested a 360? T. Tamefuji Mmmm hum P. Beckner Did you happen to see the object while in the 360? T. Tamefuji Humm, the pilot was right-hand • P. Beckner Right- hand turn, right? T. Tamefuji Humm, so I watch, what • 12 P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji s. Mi mo to T. Tamefuji s. Mi mo to P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji Right so I couldn't find what Captain saw. Okay, you were flying the aircraft then, is that correct? Ah, yes Okay But ah, um, I saw (unintelligible) ah, Captain said ah, UFO big, quite big Captain said, and how should I say ~so I tried doing this. . . I looked all over the place. And the Captain was in the way(Japanese). Oh so Captain was in the way. Well, okay he was in the way of you seeing? Yes, and ah, some ah, pillar, window pillars Oh, pillars? Yeah P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji so ah, we, ah, I couldn't see well, but some hum, hum this ~this is not exact picture, but ah, like similiar like aircraft is (unintelligible) ••• P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji I dark is background, but I -you cannot say it was UFO or not. P. Beckner Okay, was it different then what you saw here? T. Tamefuji Completely different. P. Beckner Completely different, okay. But was it brighter, were these brighter, er ••• ? T. Tamefuji brighter • P. Beckner These are brighter? T. Tamefuji Yes, ah • P. Beckner The first sighting was brighter? 13 T. Tamefuji Yes P~ Beckner Okay, the head--ons were brighter? T. Tamefuji Er, yes P. Beckner Okay, um -was there anything else on the radar that you were able to see, or was that the only target that you had on the radar? T. Tamefuji Cl'l yes, and ah, I think ah, Captain tilt ••• P. Beckner Tilt right T. Tamefuji and ah, a certain tilt angle could catch the object • P. Beckner Okay, so, so was there anything else showing on the radar • T. Tamefuji Hummm P. Beckner (unintelligible) T. Tamefuji ••• that should be something spot or ground-echo, ah, ••• ? P. Beckner (unintelligible) •• ~ okay T. Tamefuji ah, I -I have many experience ah, ah, aircraft, echo or radar screen ••• , echo ••• P. Beckner Right T. Tamefuji yeah, ah, so I could identify that is ••• ah aircraft echo • • • I have many experiences before in checking oncoming aircrafts on a radar. S. Mimoto I experienced often in checking oncoming aircraft on radar before. T. Tamefuji Just like ah traffic. P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji . . • just the right (unintelligible) . . • talking. P. Beckner . so what you saw was similiar to what you seen before, when you were picking up other traffic? T. Tamefuji Yes P. Beckner Okay, okay, um, the lighting conditions, I talked about the lighting conditions outside. How 'bout the lighting conditions inside the aircraft? Were there cockpit lights on ••• 14 ' T. Tamefuji Hummm, no . . . P. Beckner • and all that sort of stuff or • T. Tamefuji • hummm, it was for night flights seeting. P. Beckner Right, okay. T. Tamefuji Bright, it looked bright P. Beckner Not bright but ••• T. Tamefuji Dim P. Beckner • dim, okay. Was there? Was there any attempt to .... did you guys turn them down all the ways, or ••• T. Tamefuji Hummmm ••• P. Beckner ••• what you saw outside couldn't have possibly, could have possible been a reflection or something from inside the cockpit? T. Tamefuji Hummmm • P. Beckner I'm just, just asking ••• T. Tamefuji Yeah, yeah ••• I understand that. Ah, I .... I want to say there is not possibility what you think • P. Beckner Okay of reflection T. Tamefuju ah, no. P. Beckner Okay. Was the light turned all the way off just to see if it made any difference, er ••• ? T. Tamefuji Um • P. Beckner ••• do you remember if .... if you did that, er, the Captain may have done it? T. Tamefuji Umm, ah, I was very busy, so, ah, I ••• P. Beckner That's right you were the flying pilot . . . T. Tamefuji Yes, and ah, 150 feet P. Beckner Yeah T. Tamefuji and so, but ah, maybe, maybe not good word but, maybe ah, Captain try down dark .... darker . . . 15 P. Beckner Okay, darker, okay T. Tamefuji and ah, I flight engineer calculator (unintelligible) so he had ah • • • P. Beckner So he had a spot on his table? T. Tamefuji Yes P. Beckner By the engineer table? T. Tamefuji Yes, I -when I saw, but ah, cockpit was ah, dark. P. Beckner Okay. Ah, what size would you estimate this -this object to be? T. Tamefuji Hummm, it is hard to say, but -ummm, I thought it was ah, ah, I thought it was larger than ah, aircraft. s. Mimoto What kinds of aircrafts? T. Tamefuji An originally oncoming aircraft S. Mimoto P. Beckner It feels like it's larger than normal airplane. Oncoming airplane Okay. Okay. Ah, did you notice any magnetic disturbances, ah, the compass • T. Tamefuji No ••• P. Beckner • swing or anything • T. Tamefuji • but ah, um, I think you have ATC tape of that time? P. Beckner Right T. Tamefuji And controllers tape, ah, said that several times you're garbling P. Beckner No ••• T. Tamefuji ••• but ah, my English is so hee ••• how should I said that reasoning • • • I thought perhaps the air traffic controller did not understand my English, so, he said 'garbling'. S. Mimoto Oh, maybe Air Traffic Control did not understand my English, so P. Beckner S. Mimoto • he was polite and said 'garbling' P. Beckner • said (unintelligible) government garble, okay. 16 T. Tamefuji (unintelligible) but ah ••• S. Mimoto That's the way I thought ••• \ , P. Beckner Was that all the way, the whole length of the trip? He felt that, er, er, was it just during this period of time when you were working with ••• T. Tamefuji Oh yeah, hummm P. Beckner • when you were asking him about the other traffic? T. Tamefuji Yes P. Beckner Okay. How 'bout later on in the flight? Did he ask you to say again, you're garbled, er ••• ? T. Tamefuji No, no P. Beckner • okay, just • T. Tamefuji ••• just ah, ah, from Pottat, Alaska til ••• P. Beckner Right T. Tamefuji and ah, radar contact with controllers, and ah, there was no garbling • P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji . ah, at that time • P. Beckner And your initial contact was Center? T. Tamefuji Yes P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji It clear after that moment. P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji (unintelligible) P. Beckner How 'bout navigation, did you notice any navigation interference, ah • • • ? T. Tamefuji (unintelligible) P. Beckner ••• I understand you're on I N S, so there, there is no problem there, okay. Was there any turbulance, did the airplane experience any turbulance anytime you saw this, the objects?? 17 T. Tamefuji (unintelligible) P. Beckner Okay. How 'bout the autopilot, did -was it on autopilot? T. Tamefuji Yes P~ Beckner Okay, did the autopilot kick off? T. Tamefuji No P. Beckner Er, it stayed on all the time? T. Tamefuji No P. Beckner Okay. Urn, let me just read my notes here and see if I have got everything I needed to ask you about. You say that you had suggested to the Captain that you call Center and ask if they had any targets? T. Tamefuji Hum • P. Beckner About how long after you first saw this did you go, b-before asking about calling Center? T. Tamefuji Hummm, hum " at first in my mind P. Beckner Right, yeah T. Tamefuji and conversation so it was not too long but, ah -hummm, I can't say exactly but two or three minutes. P. Beckner Okay, okay. Um -Was the Captain the first one to spot the ob - the ah, lights? T. Tamefuji The who? P. Beckner First saw the object? T. Tamefuji Hummm, I think ah, at the same time, almost. P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji But ah, i t i s not impossible to at same time . . . P. Bec kner Right, but T. Tamefuji (unintelligible) P. Bec kner but -but communicating, yeah. T. Tamefuj i Humm, um, not s o much different betwee n 18 P. Beckner Okay~ So pretty much at the same time you both saw it? T~ Tamefuji Right P. Beckner And at that time it was ten to eleven? T. Tamefuji Hummm, I thought. P. Beckner That I S what I'm asking is what you thought? T. Tamefuji Yeah P. Beckner Okay. Um. Okay we discussed the ah, turn, the 360? T. Tamefuji Um hum P. Beckner I understand somewhere in the flight you guys also descended from 3, 5, 0 to 3, 1, O? T. Tamefuji Yes P. Beckner Did ~did the object stay with you at that point, or did the lights stay with you, or whatever? T. Tamefuji Humm, hum at that time ••• P. Beckner At that time did you still have them in sight? T. Tamefuji Yes, but ah, different. P. Beckner Um hum T. Tamefuji Ah, the object was different side the captain's side so I can not P. Beckner Okay you could not see it, okay. So you actually saw it only for about five to ten minutes? T. Tamefuji Hummm, I think so. P. Beckner Ah, because I understand that the ~ the target was ah, not target, but the item, object, lights, whatever, were in sight for upwards of around fifty minutes, total. That's what the Captain saw, was about that length of time. T. Tamefuji Umm, um P. Beckner And ah, but I understand that from where you were sitting you might not have been able to see it as long as he could have? T. Tamefuji Yeah P. Beckne r Especially during the turn? 19 T. Tamefuji Yeah P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner t. Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner T. Tamefuji P. Beckner Okay~ Were there any other ah ..... was there any other aircraft? Did you see any other aircraft during that particular flight? No ah, no other ATC ah, I mean ah, um, as ••• Right • and ah • You didn't see any other aircraft at all? In last part of the incident United Air . Right ah, from Anchorage. Hum, huh . And we can ..... what's that ..... we could see . . . You could see (unintelligible) United Okay you could see United . . . (l!nintelligible) Okay, did he ..... did United when you saw him was he flashing his lights at you or anything, er just normal nav lights, er . Humm . do you remember what . . .? Humm, remember, just she passed my left-hand side . . . Hum huh . and ah, I can't say • Okay. Okay ah, did the intensity of these lights change, at all . Humm . . . • • • or were they pretty much the same intensity for the time that you saw them? 20 , T. Tamefuji Hummm, was it a change of intensity? How should I say ••• ? On and off but became stronger ah, became weaker, became stronger, became weake, different from the strobe lights. s. Mimoto Some got stronger, and changed to weaker stronger again then weaker, and stronger, weaker • P. Beckner Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay, ah, you mentioned the lights that you've shown me here. This pattern that you've shown me here, the Captain has also, shown us also. But just so I, make sure I understand everything here, let me just show you ah, the details of what the Captain -and I don't know if you've seen these or not, but you've ••• T. Tamefuji Hum, hum P. Beckner This was in the newspaper here in Anchorage, for example. And this shows a similiar type pattern is what you have here • T. Tamefuji Humm P. Beckner but I just wonder if you -you also may have seen this particular ah, shape or ah, object? T. Tamefuji Hummm P. Beckner And you can probably read what is -is written here so, just kinda read that over, and ••• Do you remember seeing anything like that yourself? T. Tamefuji Humm, I don't see ah, anything like this, but ah, as I told ••• P. Beckner Yeah, this ah T. Tamefuji and you if, we can connect these lights -are -it will be a big object but, ah P. Beckner Right T. Tamefuji I can not just -there are some lights ahead or not. P. Beckner Okay, that was during the turn ••• ? T. Tamefuji No ah, I think it was before turn ••• P. Beckner Oh okay T. Tamefuji ••• and ah, we of course we convesed a lot and ••• S. Mimoto We are talking, discussing T. Tamefuji And while we were talking I saw it momentarily. 21 • s. Mimoto While conversation was going, I peeked out and momentarily I saw it. P. Beckner You saw this, okay. Um, after the turn. Were you able to see anything anymore, like this light pattern here? T. Tamefuji ~ P. Beckner Okay, er this ~ this pattern here? T. Tamefuji Humm, no. P. Beckner Okay. And tha -so that was the last time you saw it, was prior to the turn . . . T. Tamefuji Humm P. Beckner Okay, okay. Well sir, that's all I can think to ask you. Is there anything you'd like ta ~ to further add ~ and give us some more understanding to what you folks saw up there? T. Tamefuju Humm, no well, I am certain that I saw something. S. Mimoto Well I'm ~ I'm sure I saw something. T. Tamefuji It was clear enough to make me believe taht there was an oncoming aircraft. s. Mimoto This is clearly enough to make me believe it was an oncoming airplane. P. Beckner Okay T. Tamefuji That's the starting point of this story. S. Mimoto That's the beginning of this story. P. Beckner ~the story, ah, (laughter). Okay um, well that pretty much concludes the questions I have for you. And again I appreciate you coming in. Especially on such short notice. And Sy I appreciate you coming in also on such short notice. So thank you very much • T. Tamefuji And ah, can I ask one question? P. Beckner Sure T. Tamefuji Ah, I read the FAA news hummm, ah, humm, I found military radar picked up some kind of target on their radar. (unintelligible) What type of understanding? P. Beckner Umm, I'm not sure what they seen on that radar, right at the present moment. 22 .. T. Tamefuji Ah huh P. Beckner And um, let me just do this. I can find out and let you know. T. Tamefuji Arid ah, well Saturday ah, ah, TV interview from New York. P. Beckner Oh is that right. T. Tamefuji Yeah P. Beckner Ch T. Tamefuji And ah, the interview said military, some kind of commander I don't remember, but, ah, some military P. Beckner Military -military ah, commander? T. Tamefuji Ah, how should I say, but some personnel from military said this was a weather interference. S. Mimoto And this military commander said it was a weather interfere ••• interference. P. Beckner (unintelligible) T. Tamefuji Ah, on the radar s. Mimoto On the radar P. Beckner Okay, that I -that I don't know, um T. Tamefuji But ah, it was clear sky, so ••• P. Beckner Right T. Tamefuji there's no possibility of weather interference. P. Beckner On the weather, interference, okay. Well I'll do this, I will find out what the result of the analysis is on those. We're going to eventually get that anyway. And I'll let you know what we have. Okay? I have your phone number so I'll do that. Okay? T. Tamefuji Yes 23