733667-001-008

RECORD OF INTERVIEW WITH JAL CAPTAIN Richard Gordon, Manager, FSD0-63 Kenju Terauchi, Captain, JAL Frank Fujii, Interpretor, JAL Sayoko Mimoto, FAA Airways Facilities Mr . Shinbashi, Station Manager On January 2, 1987, Inspector Richard 0. Gordon, FSD0-63, and Japanese Interpertor Sayoko Mimoto, FAA Airways Facilities, interviewed JAL Captain Kenju Terauchi at JAL Operations, Anchorage, Alaska. The interview was conducted for the purpose of gathering first-hand witness testimony with regard to a sighting on November 17, 1986, by Captain Terauchi and his crew of an unidentified flying object. The following text is a record of t he interv iew: R. Gordon Think what I'm going to ..• Garbled R. Gordon I have a, oh, a few questions here, and I'll be glad to let you read them and it's just some clarification because I didn't do it, but one of the people that work for me, I'm the office manager over here at the FSDO, the Flight Standards Office. And Jack Wright, one of my people came over and met with the Captain the first night • • . K. Terauchi Oh yeah. R~ Gordon Jack Wright gave you his card . • • K. Terauchi Yeah. R. Gordon Well then that's what Jack wrote down here. Well when they came I was out of town, I was in Washington DC, but when I came back, then I asked a couple questions and then the Administrator is asking some questions and I said, well we don't know we didn't ask that, so they gave me that list of questions right there, and we'll just address them along the way and then talk about them. K. Terauchi Okay. R. Gordon And it's almost reiterating what we've been through already on this thing. K. Terauchi Sometimes, sometimes. F . Fujii Reiterating questions, but, was this the first experience, Captain? K. Terauchi No, third time. R. Gordon This is the third time that ah that you've seen, where, in the same area or . • • 1 K. Terauchi No, no, no .•. um, ah I saw, um, mothership. Taipai, Kushung, Formosa, south of Formosa. R. Gordon Around, near Formosa. K. Terauchi Yeah ah no F. Fujii This Tiapai mainland China R. Gordon Uh uh K. Terauchi And Taipai, Kushung is here, so ah this cargo flight ah I took off ah 2 am midnight, after midnight, after takeoff. When we start climb we saw left-hand side big mothership, but ah •.• it was so wierd, I ignored it (did not look). F. Fujii Cause he wasn't feeling well •.. R. Gordon No I can understand that, but that was the first time? K. Terauchi Big Ship -yes and the second time ah, the, in my home I saw a sky clear daytime; ah, we can, we saw bright lights, I guess maybe ah 10,000 feet so ah .•. the light continued for about ten minutes. F. Fujii The light continued for about ten minut~s, so ah disappeared suddenly. K. Terauchi It's ah I guess this one. R. Gordon Okay now this one you saw off mainland China what timeframe did that happen, when did that happen? F. Fujii What-time was it? K. Terauchi 2 am R. Gordon When last month Interruption R. Gordon Okay, excuse me one moment, but ah ••• Okay Frank I was trying to figure out that first sighting last year or this year K. Terauchi Five years ago R. Gordon Oh five years ago, just trying to get the timeframe that we sighted these things ah, the next one was that we wanted to talk about • F. Fujii Was it the first experience for the crew members? 2 R. Gordon First time for t he other crew members, okay that's fine. K. Terauchi I think it was the first time. F . Fujii Who was the first person who saw it? K. Terauchi It was me. I saw it in - inside. F . Fujii What did you notice at first? K. Terauchi During first time we saw light, I think a navigation light. R. Gordon Ah ha, but you saw it visually first you didn't pick it up on r a dar or anything you just saw some light out there, okay and that really coinsides with the air traffic statement, you called and said do you have any traffic in my area K. Terauchi Yeah, yeah before, before, about six minutes before I saw this one so ah •.• R. Gordon K. Terauchi R. Gordon F . Fujii R. Gordon K. Terauchi F . Fujii R. Gordon ? R. Gordon K. Terauchi & F . Fujii You were watching him for about five or six minutes before you called • Before I contact Anchorage Center Ah ah, okay Okay fourth question, what did you see exactly shape, light, and all, the shape, lighting, etc. Well if you can just explain these to me cause it looks like you've done alot of drawing here so it's not necessary for you to redraw all this stuff This light was amber and whitish, but, when it came to here it wa s only amber • white light. Why don't I understand. (Japanese) right First of all it's like amber and whitish color, came closely it seems like all the output exhaust position of the jets, all these Challenger Look like something like after burners ••• okay okay, like each one of these was an individual exhaust Yes Okay So this light is special like (Japanese) when ah Challenger, yes like Challenger took off amount of flame going on, we can't see Challenger by this flame 3 R. Gordon Okay, yes K. Terauchi But this one is nozzle direction (Japanese)(garbled) we couldn't see this light this direction we could see big flame R. Gordon Maybe we're saying then if you're looking at the back of it and then when it turns sideways this doesn't show. Okay I understand. F. Fujii From the forward you could see the flame and the exhaust and flame were surrounding it. R. Gordon Okay F. Fujii So maybe ah, I - I think ah, um exhaust started (garbled) R. Gordon Being okay these things here, maybe being each one of these things here, so these were maybe stacked, in otherwards if you were looking at the top view down, you would just see one if you come around here you would see all of those lights. Okay yeah K. Terauchi So if they moved up or I guess this ah exhaust moved to ah, this way down so finally five years ago I saw the rocket. R. Gordon Maybe that would account for that bright light he saw five years ago. In otherwords if these turned down you couldn't see them and then when it looked like it moved over here some over here turned up and then you could see them where it looked like it moved over there? So you're saying • K. Terauchi Anyway a h (Japanese) right (Japanese) ••• Talk to me •.• Could not see but only here and here ••• and this, here, dark area, I saw sparks, like fire. When using gasoline or carbon fuel. You can see a great big flame, but I could not see (flame) a t all in this angle, although there was a big blast. F. Fujii Seems like it's really high technology because you can't see anything over here unless it's spinning rotation. R. Gordon Yeah, okay, yeah, somebody said sometimes the sparks kick over into that and you could see the exhaust, now with ah that in mind this other picture you have here, where would this be on this thing captain? F. Fujii Wha t you're asking hi m where this (garbled) ••• K. Terauchi Quite different, this is just small space ship, this one size of carrier, two times carrier so mothership, so ah after they flew with us three ah five minutes like home mission, then move to a mothership. So then I found mothership light, but this is not llght, all engine, because ah we have contact seven or eight mile here, so we saw this first lights, s o um after light contact a h they move behind so we saw this pairs of light, so we saw this light same size, this one, same size. 4 R. Gordon Same distance apart Now do you think that was just the mothership and then these little things were ••• K. Terauchi But, yes, that right R. Gordon I mean they were moving along, at that time where were these lights, captain? F. Fujii (Japanese) disappear R. Gordon Okay, okay K. Terauchi Then we find this light, so I think this one is light, but I think now this is engine, so ah, same type of engine, the same logic ••• the same type of engine. This one and this one, the same logic, this point and this point are the same just bigger i n size. This is the small one so it looked like this, but the bigger one, I could not see but only here, small size, big size, same technology. Yeah R. Gordon Oh, oh F . Fujii The mothership seems like it, he said that, this, this, same technology, type of engine R. Gordon Well they're alot, much larger. K. Terauchi Yes, much larger • R. Gordon So this right here would be ah, sitting .•. S. Mimoto No, this light is sitting here K. Terauchi Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah • • • R. Gordon Only much larger (garbled) K. Te r auchi Yeah much larger, much power. But, this color is white uh ••• it's ah um dark white pole ••• weak light .•• (unintelligible) R. Gordon Maybe because it's so much bigger. K. Terauchi Yea h R. Gordon Now this distance, now you were speaking of these were fairly close uh? K. Ter auchi Hum uh, ah distances is ah, ah, not this, this one ah, 500, a h between 500 and 1,000 feet. R. Gordon Oka y , out from you, a nd then i t took off and went out here and maybe this is, ah, you said five to seven miles or somethihg on the r adar. 5 K. Terauchi A no, seven, seven or eight miles. R. Gordon Okay seven or eight miles, that's what they were saying on the radar. K. Terauchi Yeah, this later, so we saw about seven or eight miles ... R. Gordon Okay K. Terauchi And, 60 degrees left .•. R. Gordon Okay K. Terauchi So out in here small ship is disappear. R. Gordon Okay, I understand, now lets (unintelligible) what else, see if I forget anything, visual was a first, what, you showed me exactly what you saw. Visually sighting, you saw it first uh? K. Terauchi First R. Gordon Okay F. Fujii And (unintelligible) probably how long had you contacted the target. R. Gordon No that's what we were saying, five to six minutes before you called ATC. K. Terauchi Ye~h, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, that's right. R. Gordon Okay, did the other crew have trouble sighting the object? F. Fujii Did the rest of the crew see the lights? K. Terauchi (More Japanese) So I tried to fix it, but I ah, failed. Laughter K. Terauchi Just, shutter was open, did not close, so ••• F. Fujii Yes every crew has seen it. R. Gordon Okay all the crew members they did see it. Okay. Laughter •.. Yeah that's what I would do (more laughter) F. Fujii What type of onboard radar? R. Gordon Yeah, what type of radar was onboard, that ah ? K. Terauchi It was the kind, ditigal, but I don not know. 6 R. Gordon Digital color? K. Terauchi Yes colored, digital R. Gordon Okay, fine, yeah, that's all we need! I don't need to know numbers. Ah did the target appear on the radar as unusual or; or solid target or intermitt .•• F. Fujii Was it clear? K. Terauchi Clearly, clearly R. Gordon Very clearly K. Terauchi But, ah, ah, strong, ah return signal is strong in case of a storm, show ah red, and next yellow. R. Gordon Okay ? The, but weak is green . . . R. Gordon Right. K. Terauchi So ah is green light. R. Gordon It showed green . . . K. Terauchi Green R. Gordon Okay, yeah, that's, that's where even some of the stuff could get through it, like when you take a picture of a cloud on the radar • K. Terauchi Oh yeah • R. Gordon If it's green, but if it's got heavy rain in it or thunderstorm in it then it shows red ••• K. Terauchi Yes, yes R. Gordon So it's light green, maybe the waves can go through this thing. Okay so it showed green on the radar, on the color radar. F. Fujii When did you pick it up, the radar? K. Terauchi Time? Time? F. Fujii Time, is it by time, when? R. Gordon Oh after, how long after you saw it with your eyes did you pick it up on the radar? K. Terauchi Okay ah, um seven minutes, five minute, makes it twelve minutes, so, ah, fifteen minutes after contact. 7 R. Gordon Fifteen minutes after you visually contacted it, okay, okay. K. Terauchi Yeah, fifteen minutes • when ah • • • R. Gordon K. Terauchi R. Gordon K. Terauchi R. Gordon See, it just says did you paint anything that's did you see anything else on the radar, weather or anything else • • • No, no, nothing. Just that target Yeah, yes, yes. Okay, okay The only thing we saw on the radar then was that target F . Fujii How about the aircraft, any turbulence? K. Terauchi No, ah, no R. Gordon No, no turbulence, no turbulence at all, okay. Autopilot stayed on all the time. K. Terauchi Yeah • R. Gordon Okay K. Terauchi Working good R. Gordon Good, (laughter) F. Fujii Now how about communications, naviagion, or interferring of any sort • • • ? K. Terauchi This ah small aircraft near the here, so ah all the way VHF transmit on (unintelligible) with ah some we got a like some kind of . • • like ah, jamming. R. Gordon Some kind of interference? K. Terauchi Interference. R. Gordon On the VHF? K. Terauchi Yes then this one leave for rnothership . . . R. Gordon Ah ha K. Terauchi Back to normal(?) R. Gordon Okay, did you say it's like German talking uh? 8 K. Terauchi Yeah, yeah, yeah. R. Gordon Okay S . Mimoto Was it's sound like speaking in German, or just jamming noise? K. Terauchi It was just noise, sounded zaa, zaa R. Gordon Oh just noise ••. Okay, okay I misunderstood you, I'm glad you brought that out. K. Terauchi Normally when you can hear clearly it is digital 5. 5, 4, 3, 2 , 1 - but it was about 2. F. Fujii You know five by five radio communication R. Gordon Oh yeah uh hu, okay sure F. Fujii It was like two R. Gordon Okay okay, like two K. Terauchi Sometimes missing, sometimes missing. R. Gordon Like, almost like, ah, background noise? K. Terauchi Yes, yes. R. Gordon Okay, and then when it, when the little small lights departed the noise went away, then back to real clear communications? K. Te r auchi Yes, that's right. R. Gordon Okay, fine, ah, lets see, I'm going to come back to thirteen, because ah • • • F . Fujii Oka y R. Gordon What was there any question? F. Fujii Did you see any reflection on the glass (window)? R. Gordon Inside the cockpit, was it dark, all the light off inside the cockpit? K. Te r auchi Oh ah, dark yeah, yeah, yeah. K. Terauchi Therefore, there was not reflection of inside. No reflection from inside. So when I took the camera bag, finding the object, all the light s were turned off, made room dark -cargo room and passenge r r oom, there was nothing to reflect. F. Fujii We ha ve ah, on a cargo plane we ha ve a back lounge . 9 R. Gordon Yeah, I'm familiar with it, yeah I've been on there. F. Fujii So he turned the light off on that, because they were trying to take a photo. R. Gordon Okay, okay F. Fujii So the (unintelligible) was dark. R. Gordon Okay, that's good, I just wanted to make sure that everything in the cockpit you know, you see something and then you turn the light cause, me being a pilot, normally when I see something out there I'll turn the lights off and get everything dark inside. K. Terauchi Yes that's right. F. Fujii When you changed you aircraft position, did they make any special moves? K. Terauchi No, they didn't. See here, I began to circle 360 degrees, they stayed at the same position with us. F. Fujii Uh uh, same position K. Terauchi Same position, same position, same position all the way (unintelligible) R. Gordon Okay following you right around uh? K. Terauchi Yes R. Gordon And it was here, and then here, and here, and here, and then you rolled out and it was right there, okay. K. Terauchi So ah, ah, I tried next, ah, descent, 3, 5, o, 3, 1 ' o. R. Gordon Ah ah, okay, 3, 1 ' O, when you descended to 3, 1 ' O, still uh? K. Terauchi Yeah, same formation, uh formation descent • • • formation descent. It was impressive, the same formation, smooth! R. Gordon Okay K. Terauchi We, we used autopilot when descending, so (unintelligible). R. Gordon Okay, yeah, yeah went right down with him, okay uh ••• F. Fujii Can we go to the next one? R. Gordon Sure, yeah, I was just was ah ••• 10 there F . Fujii K. Terauchi F. Fujii R. Gordon K. Terauchi R. Gor don Size, estimate, ah, size (More Japanese) Two times, or ah, I guess ah . . . (unintelligible) seven four seven Okay So ah, size is ah, carrier Ah uh, in other words this being the jumbo jet was about as big ss just the light •.• ? K. Terauchi See this is the jumbo jet. 1.5, two times this light. R. Gordon Okay, okay, I have •.• so the side light on this thing was sbout, the jumbo is about two to two-and-a-half time the size of this light, so when you stack 'em up, you •.• K. Terauchi Yeah, yeah, yeah • • • R. Gordon were saying about two times as big as an aircraft carrier. K. Terauchi Yeah, yeah, yeah. R. Gordon Okay K. Terauchi It felt like this big -(he made a circle by using his fingers); seven to eight miles away and it was this big. Normally, an air carrier is seven -eight miles away, it looks like this. F. Fujii Seven or eight miles away, usually the aircrafts are like this • R. Gordon Ah uh, okay F . Fujii About this big so . . . R. Gordon Okay F . Fujii with his estimate. R. Gordon So he's kinda comparing it to another jumbo jet? F. Fujii Yeah, yeah . . . R. Gordon Okay s . Mimoto (More Japanese) Tremendous R. Gordon Oh yeah (laughter) , boy, okay F . Fujii Go for this size here, this one. 11 R. Gordon Yeah, let's see what would you estimate the size of the small ships to be? K. Terauchi Ah ••• (unintelligible), up here equal to (unintelligible) we saw, ah, second (unintelligible), square, but I saw this on here, ah here, for so I guess this one is maybe separate, separate, then move to here. So ah, ah, (Japanese). R. Gordon Right, yeah, ah uh. S. Mimoto if this one was two stacked together, how large was one? K. Terauchi This here ah fuselage, fuselage of DC-8, DC-8 fuselage. R. Gordon DC-8, okay • • • yeah ah uh, in other words this part right here would be like fuselage of a DC-8. K. Terauchi Oh yes • R. Gordon Like this . K. Terauchi Yeah, yeah, yeah R. Gordon Okay K. Terauchi Maybe, maybe about like this R. Gordon Uh ah, yeah I understand, okay, I got it. That's good. F. Fujii Any other lighted or unlight objects, any other lights? K. Terauchi Yeah, we saw ah, some unusual light from ah, top of mothership. R. Gordon Uh ah K. Terauchi Ah, it was not regular, but -not regularly, but white - silverish lights, not in equal span of time, but occasionally flashed, irregularly lighted at all times. S. Mimoto Occasional flash K. Terauchi Flash, flash R. Gordon And since I've got this on tape, if you will help me later, you know when we write this down, because I can't remember all this stuff. Thank you. K. Terauchi (Japanese) First time we cannot see ah, this (unintelligible) so ah, ah, we saw this light, this light, and • R. Gordon Ah uh, okay, thank you very much. 12 F. Fujii (Japanese) No ah magnetic K. Terauchi No ah no • R. Gordon No gages, or the instruments or the RMI on everything stayed okay, no magnetic disturbances? Okay. Ah, did the intensity of the objects lights change? I think he just explained that didn't he on that ah • • • S. Mimoto (unintelligible) you mean intensity of light? R. Gordon No on this object here, did the, did the intensity of these lights change, and I think he just explained that, ah F. Fujii You mean by distance, right? R. Gordon No the intensity, the brightness of the, ah . . . s. Mimoto (unintelligible) F. Fujii Did the intensity of lights change? K. Terauchi No, it did not change. R. Gordon They didn't change, huh? K. Terauchi Steady, steady. R. Gordon Okay, the intensity was steady? K. Terauchi Yes K. Terauchi Visibility ah, more clear, all the way clear, clear sky. R. Gordon Okay • • • K. Terauchi Clear sky R. Gordon How about visibilty? What would you estimate, you know when you're coming down from up there where we enter over Alaska where you come off the sea and hit Alaska, you come up a ways and then you can see Fairbanks out here, no problems seeing Fairbanks? K. Terauchi When flying over Fort Yukon • • • R. Gordon Fort Yukon, yeah. K. Terauchi We can see ah Fairbanks and Eilsen Air Base. R. Gordon Okay, yes, good, that's real clear, that's that's fine. Shinbashi It was near full moon wasn't it? 13 K. Terauchi But we came this way. Full moon (unintelligible) Greenland, after we, we cross ah Greenland we saw moon right side (unintelligible) ••• but moon move to ah behind us so when crossing the Canadian, Canadian, ah, FLR (unintelligible) so maybe ah moon, ah stay near the horizon, so we couldn't use the moon light. R. Gordon Ah uh, I understand. K. Terauchi (Japanese) R. Gordon So the moon was very low? K. Terauchi Very low, very low, okay. R. Gordon That's good, I appreciate you bringing that up, I didn't think about the moon, but that's good. K. Terauchi Full moon, full moon, was very low, full moon. R. Gordon Well that's good, I'm glad you folks did that, uh ••• K. Terauchi So ah, R. Gordon There's one last question ••• ? Yes R. Gordon This, and it's just threw it in here, is there anything else that I didn't ask you that you could help us sort this thing out? K. Terauchi Ah, yes, they R. Gordon Frank, see how that tapes doing. We still got plenty? F. Fujii Yes, ah uh. R. Gordon That's good, because the mike is right there that's super. K. Terauchi See it is recoil blasting, just a little bit high here, it is blasting jets, then if it was at the same altitude as we were, I assume they are using an atomic energy, there will be some radiation left on our aircraft. Also the other is, that air turbulance be created. So they did not want to leave any evidence of their existance. Also the reason, why they were there (position) is that they wanted to leave no evidence. See it is round, the air current goes this way (he is drawing a picture), see if they were at the same altitude, they would create air turbulance, but they never positioned when the air turbulance would disturb us. R. Gordon Those are the small one now? 14 r K. Terauchi Yeah. • • R. Gordon The little one huh? K. Terauchi (Japanese) F. Fujii That flight level right there does not leave any evidence, also if it on the same level, it would give this aircraft a little turbulence cause of this air. R. Gordon You got no turbulence? K. Terauchi No turbulence. R. Gordon So it's just suspended there, really. K. Terauchi (Japanese) Right F. Fujii (unintelligible) leave the evidence ••• R. Gordon Yeah, well that's what I'm saying, it's so moving, it's either so areodynamic that it's not causing, so you're saying when he was right in front of you there was not turbulence and if you had been that close to another object that large you should have got some buffetting? K. Terauchi Yeah R. Gordon Okay, I understand K. Terauchi The turbulance would assure their existance, therefore, they positioned themselves to here from the beginning. R. Gordon Yes K. Terauchi Certainly, ah approaching Fort Yukon, west side, this side east side, so ah (unintelligible)(Japanese) big mothership (Japanese), horizon, sunset, we caught up the sunset, two -three millimeters strip of it. Then there was the mothership. They never came to this side. Because of the sunset (if they came to the other side) they would be seen, their shape by us. They positioned themselves at the darkest side, difficult place for us to see. But see, our aircraft was in front of the sunset and visible for any movement we make. They took the trouble to position themselves to be in the darkest place. I think they did not want to be seen. F. Fujii He thinks that they don't want, of course they don't want the ship to see it, so they go to the place where it's dark • R. Gordon Yeah F. Fujii and because there's a sunset over here, and about one 15 K. Terauchi (Japanese) 0.1 ah, inch F. R. F. R. F. R. Fujii Gordon Fujii Gordon Fujii Gordon About 0.1 ••• Just right on the horizon, the sun was setting? Yeah, yes. So they don't want to go toward the ship side, they stayed away from it. Toward the dark side. Yes So that would have put them to the east like on the Canadian side you're coming down on your side (unintelligible) captain's side? K. Terauchi Yes R. Gordon Okay I understand. K. Terauchi I think, perhaps, they have regulations like they must not be seen by humans. But it was a surprise to see the sudden appearance in front of us. If the machine was set automatically for the distance of eight miles away from us, the machine will not come closer than eight miles (but they jumped in front of us), so I felt there was a living creature in it. It jumped in front of us, very unusual. They took such unexpected action. Try the other one(?) F. Fujii Seems like they're trying to stay away, I guess there's some kind of regulation for them to not be seen by • • • R. Gordon Ah uh, I understand. I have one more question that came up that I was thinking; now when he departed, departed east? Is that what someone told me; which direction did, when he departed, went away? F. Fujii Which direction did it take off to? K. Terauchi I don't know. Probably to the east. F. Fujii He thinks it's east, he's not really sure. He was looking at it and it just dissappeared, so ••• R. Gordon Okay, appeared that it went east, but it went so fast? K. Terauchi So fast. R. Gordon Okay F. Fujii He wa s watching it and it just disappeared ••• 16 R. Gordon Okay, fine. Well I can't think of anything else I need to ask you, ah, I really appreciate you taking time to talk to us, because it's very, very interesting and we need to see if we can figure out what is there, you know. K. Terauchi So ah, one things, they ah, completely they're controled of inertial and gravity. Yeah, so their technology was unthinkable. Unimaginable high technology. F. Fujii High tech. R. Gordon Oh yeah, it just sounds like it. All I can say is let's hope they're on our side ••• (laughter) Shinbashi This kind of information (unintelligible) before? R. Gordon No I can't, I haven't so that's why we're trying to get as much information as we have; we're going to send it back to Washington DC, and have them try to marry it up with anything like this before and then maybe we can say, oh, it happened here, or it happened here ••• K. Terauchi Oh yeah R. Gordon • other sightings, we have a lot of stuff where pilots have had other sightings. K. Terauchi Oh yes R. Gordon So we don't know if these lights and all these pictures you drew; maybe they'll be the same and it happened in Arizona or New York or wherever, so we got a place in Washington DC, we'll put them all together and say is any two of them alike. But, but as we go through this thing I would be glad to keep you folks informed and, -Of what we find out, or if we find out anything, but I'll be glad to tell you and see how we're doing. Could I get those drawings, if you don't mind ah? I think that's all we need. K. Terauchi (unintelligible) R. Gordon Yes, yes, you could probably explain that with the thing you have drawn here. Now these are the same drawings? K. Terauchi Oh no, no, no R. Gordon Yeah K. Terauchi This one, this one, are the same. R. Gordon Same K. Terauchi So I like (unintelligible) 17 R. Gordon I get a copy of that Frank? Could we take a picture of that, I would certainly appreciate it. Yes. Alright. I think that's all, can you think of anything we need. K. Terauchi (unintelligible) R. Gordon Yes, please if I could have one. Oh one thing, this track K. Terauchi Oh yeah. This one is ah (unintelligible) so after this one is ah (unintelligible) this point ah ••• R. Gordon Okay, right about the K. Terauchi This point, so we contact Anchorage Center here, so ah two or three minutes, proceed right direct to Talkeetna, so we flew this distance • . • R. Gordon Okay from that point direct to Talkeetna and ah, and then some so you went about there you saw this thing. K. Terauchi Yes, yes, I saw from here . . . so ah . R. Gordon Okay, and then maybe five minutes later along here saying Anchorage do you have anything out there? K. Terauchi Oh yeah, yeah, yeah R. Gordon Okay I have it. To just about Talkeetna? K. Terauchi No no, disappear 75 miles north of Talkeetna R. Gordon Okay 75 miles north of Talkeetna • K. Terauchi Yeah, yeah R. Gordon • it went away. S. Mimoto The small one, not the mothership, were there many light? K. Terauchi Oh yes, there were numerous lights. The exhausts on the engine were lined up all the way, but when they were blasting recoil jets were so strong I could not see it because it was so bright. Once the recoil blast stopped, the speed was absolutely steady, not faster or slower, and I could see them very clearly. S . Mimoto Just one group? K. Terauchi See there were two, appeared in front of us. Right here and right here • both exactly the same. S. Mimoto Only two? K. Terauchi All I saw was two. 18 R. Gordon Yeah, I got that out of that other one that there was two and then it went back to the mothership. K. Terauchi Yeah s. Mimoto R. Gordon s. Mimoto R. Gordon s. Mimoto K. Terauchi I thought maybe there was more then two. Oh I see, I'm glad you asked that. There were only two? Only two. But one was larger then the other like there was two of 'em were stuck together, right? Then both are the same size, possible got (stuck) together later? Yes, possibly. The one I saw first, it was this long. See if they were stacked together at the beginning, one must have returned to the mothership soon after the separtation. S. Mimoto This (unintelligible) R. Gordon Oh you saw that, and then they separated like they were together and then they came apart. K. Terauchi (Japanese) R. Gordon Ah uh, okay. Same thing, and make sure that I'm right here, that ah, ah airplane, first sighting, and say this is over here, then it would have ••• S. Mimoto (unintelligible) R. Gordon Okay, fine just so we know if someone asks us that question we can answer. Very good. Well I have a lot better understanding of what transpired then what we got out of a bunch of people when we talked, and I want to thank you folks for your time. I really appreciate it. 19